Regarding ECF Safety Specification For Metal Tube Mods

[rolygate]

1. The kill mechanical mods comment comes from the wire as ground spec. Mechanical mods ground to the body to avoid the failures commonly caused by faulty wires, solder joints, etc.

Ah OK, got it. Yeah - this is an interesting one. What we have here is a simple casing ground system that won't experience many problems in use, but where the battery casing can short to earth; vs an insulated return, which could fail more often, but isolates the ground (assuming that the atty connector is also isolated).

Maybe the best answer is a mylar internal sleeve, as nothing else needs to be done about that aspect? It's what I'd do. A 2-pole device might need to be designed from scratch. The guidelines don't cover any of this, it's simply pointed out that a device where the batts can't short to earth is going to be safer. It's a reasonable point to make since there are far more metal tube mod incidents reported than boxmod incidents. Why? Could be because batts are shorting to earth. Use a sleeve.

2. If I understand what you've said correctly, you alone devised these specifications? If that is correct, I am even more concerned with their merit. Do you not see the hubris in a single man dictating the design specifications of an entire industry? And based on what? Some reports of exploding batteries and an engineering background? Not enough. Prove to me that a mod that follows these spec CAN NOT explode as you have stated. Common logic is not good enough. What made you decide 3 slots at 2x5/32 was the exact number that would allow adequate gas venting? Or was it an arbitrary guess? There are people here with backgrounds as or more impressive then your own...I think your positions need to be justified with explanation. Not necessarily laboratory testing, but how about some math?

There's a lot to get into here - probably too much for this arena. I accept that I carry a very great responsibility. Whatever I decide will be wrong according to some people. We have a saying on the ECF staff that, "ECF is never right". It means that when you please one group, another gets upset. This is a fact because ECF is so big and does so many jobs.

We have stated that in June we will be promoting the EMS guidelines. There will be pain at first; but in two years time, almost everyone will be saying it was a very good thing. The person who won't agree is the sealed metal tube mod maker who wouldn't change and whose business went through the floor. I won't lose any sleep over that.

Give me a better road and I will take it.

As regards the design we could argue over some beers all night and out of a group of ten guys who had the right to contribute, no three will agree. Maybe you can see that. So, it would be possible to put together an advisory group, and that committee would come out with a compromise solution that basically would allow most of the mod makers to keep right on doing as they are... That's what committees do.

We need action right now, not next year.

3. I'm designing a mod. For now, i'll probably ignore 2 of the 4 main parts of the spec as I see no specific justification for them. I do plan to offer a a kit at extra cost for the obsessively paranoid that allows the user to bring the mod into spec if they so choose. But I don't feel that I need to charge all my potential customers more money so that I can sell them what amounts to snake oil until it has any verification whatsoever. If you are going to dictate what is and is not safe...the testing to verify this falls on YOU and no one else. So pony up and test your specs, or make them little more than a suggestion.

The market will test the specs. We'll see.

Alternatively you can run some pressure tests: block the tube halfway down with an epoxy plug and ensue the plug cannot blow down the tube, then test various configurations at 200 psi in the top section. Tell me what you get, I'd be interested. But without the time and money to run such a test series and destroy a bunch of mods, what I need to do is estimate what is required. I'm happy with my estimate.

Also keep in mind it has to cope with the shortcut merchants who will wriggle and strive to get out of any specified safety features by implementing them half-heartedly - dealing with those people is as a big a job as dealing with 200 psi gas pressure.

[rolygate]

You had me with you on this post right up until we hit the bold text GREAT JOB......

Sorry. It kind of seemed like reasonable, sensible words and plain logic just weren't making the trip there.



Some people just don't get it till you shout. That's OK.

[cbrociuos]

Simple solution. Roly says he will accept the help - so offer to help. Those that have the knowledge on this forum have a stake in this - even if it is just not seeing their favorite PV disappear from the market or seeing nothing but the gas station PV's someday being the only option.

i seriously hope this is not where all of this is going. is the ECF talking about banning tube mods with stacked cells? or are we talking about reworking the 3.7v mods we all love? some of the "safety designs that were talked about would totally ruin the design (beauty) of some of the most popular mods. im fully aware of the risks involved with a 3.7v tube mod and i happily accept them. are we talking about banning suppliers that continue to offer mechanical tube mods after june? personally i dont want to walk around sucking on someting that is the size of a pack of cigarettes (or larger). i like the simplicity of tube mods and the reliability, for i am an addict (nicotine), and cant afford to have my unit failing. maybe a disclaimer on the vendors website, or a customer database so they know the buyer has the knowledge to "safely" use their product is an answer.

with respect.

[rolygate]

A: You are not as correct as you think you are, this will bite you.

I already said we recognise there is a cost. There is always a cost. We call it an investment.

B: You are way to emotionally involved at the moment to make public statements obviously since you attack all the modders,WHO PAY YOU GUYS FOR THEIR STATUS AS VENDORS AND MODDERS

Emotion doesn't come into it for me, as unfortunately I don't have enough to spare.

Not sure how we are attacking all the modders? We are going to put pressure on a small number of modders who sell products that are proven to explode, or that seem as if they might, under a very unfortunate set of circumstances. But those times often come around.

Enough of the big names have already told me they agree, and that they will comply, that it seems we will not be making too much of a mistake by asking a small number to make some easy adjustments to their products. And I tell you now that even if it hurt us bad, we would still do this. Because it's the right thing to do.

C. So you are finacially involved. You maybe making a very bad financial decision by attacking them.

Yes, we may get hurt. It's different from doing something to make a big financial gain, don't you think? Imagine if this would somehow make us a lot of money instead of costing us money - what do you think the reaction would be then?

This will go through, one reason being that people can clearly see it is more likely to hurt us than give any benefit. There is no gain for us in this.

You really miss a lot for someone who is claiming a near omniscient intellect.

When I Ascend to a Higher Plane I'll try and send you a message. Right now I'm just the grunt in the hot seat who is taking flak from everyone. When you are taking flak you know you're over the target.

[Riverboat]

...........................

[DaveP]

I think most of ECF are concerned about safety, especially after a few mods and ecigs have blown up in peoples' faces. I never worried about my eGo 1000mah batt with a Boge 2.0 carto until talk started about current draw and questions arose about the ability of the internal silicon controls to limit (or fail to limit) excessive current draw with dual coil cartos.

In effect, the sealed tube ecigs and their counterparts contain a similar Li-ion battery as the larger removable battery mods. Not having a vent port in the end cap is just asking for trouble. I've thought about removing the end cap on all my sealed tube ecig batts and lightly sanding the inside of the tube to allow a firm but easily removable cap and drilling a 2 or3 mm hole in the end cap. That would at least reduce the pressure needed to blow out the cap while maintaining enough to keep it from falling off.

I agree that more user information and industry control are needed. The jury is out on dual coils and single Li-ion batteries depending on who is posting.

[rolygate]

You realize the modders are meeting a need, the best way of doing away with unsafe mods is to educate people against them.

Exactly. That's exactly what we do.

Around June, we will start to educate people in how to choose a mod. Our advice might be to be careful about buying one that looks like a sealed metal tube. Buyers (and vendors) can do what they like.

Trying to regulate something or ban something has a tendency to back fire. Just saying....

That's why on ECF we don't regulate and we don't ban. We made a decision on that a long time ago.

Instead, we educate. It's all we do and it's usually enough.

[rolygate]

Again, on my phone so only gonna address these parts.

I can only guess that you only have the data that mods have exploded. But do you have the data that shows that the slots as specified are the solution or is that a pure opinion on your part? I find no fault with the suggestion of master switch, safer chem batteries and even some kind of circuit protection...but I think you need to justify the slots as they are a major change to these designs.

I would need to sit down with you over some beers so we could kick this around. There are reasons for it but those can't be set out in a couple of minutes, or here like this.

[rolygate]

My point being is no matter how safe it is someone is going to do something not recommended like stacking batteries in a Lavatube and then when it blows up in their face they will blame the place they bought it from, even though they say not to stack the batteries.

This why we are saying fix your products so they can't explode. Couldn't be much simpler. Very easy to do.

Nothing will ever be as safe as people want it, and if there are rules then the people who don't like the rules will find another place to sell their wares.

Yes. They are welcome to go elsewhere. Some probably will.

Like I have said, this will probably hurt ECF in one way or another. Later on, it will pay massive dividends in one way or another (though possibly not financially). So, you could regard it as an investment.

People maybe need to realize this will hurt ECF and we are not going to gain out of it. It may cost us money. There is no profit in it for us.

[rolygate]

Noob please define this accurately as you mean it to be intended. Noob is slang. It can be taken to mean many things.

Sorry for the slang. I was referring to the total newcomer who came to ECF, decided he wanted a mod, bought one, and it blew up. His fault for using the wrong batteries, but there were no batteries with the unit, and no instructions of any kind.

Yes - this is a problem just at that given mod vendor (or was at the time, it's been fixed now). But how to fix it at all other mod vendors so we don't hurt newbies and we don't get crucified in the press? Go round each one looking at what they do or don't do?

Easier to fix the core of the problem: mods that are likely to explode when (when, not if) there is a battery failure.

I honestly don't know where to begin since you are repeating this over and over. I can honestly tell you that failure to use a device in complaince with the guidelines set forth by an manufacturer in almost all cases removes their liability, now IF ALL MOD MAKERS WERE FAILING TO DO THIS, your statements would be valid, but it isn't the case. Many of not most mod makers are extremely explicit in operating instructions, battery specifics, and so on. Your arguement is valid for the individual cases that those guidelines are not posted.

And as we know from so many fun legal precidents, failure to be aware of something is your failure, not the governments or the manufacturer. As the saying goes, make sure you read the fine print.

Yeah, we are talking at cross purposes here. I couldn't care less if it's the user's fault. Only a badly-designed mod can explode. End of story.

Tell me if the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal or the Butte City Star will pull their articles hammering these dangerous e-cigarettes when they find it was all the user's fault?

No? I thought not.