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Thread: I need help from people who know more about WTA than I

  1. #21
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    I called it a nice NET. You got upset at me and others, and announced that you were going to call it WTAE (Whole Tobacco Alkaloid via Ethanol). You then played the "Google Scientist" card and got smacked down by a real organic chemist.

    Aroma Ejuice and Dvap are not the only producers of WTA. They just happen to make the best WTA (IMO).

    You've made a very nice NET, with a reasonably high concentration of alkaloids (for a net), and have provided a great service for those who like NETs and for those who cannot import or purchase liquid nicotine in their countries (notably Canada and Australia).

    WTA is not a loosely defined trademarked product. It is 95% nicotine and about 5% other alkaloids. It is 100% pure tobacco alkaloids.
    please refer to: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...ersus-wta.html (It was also posted here in this thread).

    This is an excellent place to have a discussion. In here, the vendor can respond if they want to. They can also lock or delete the thread if they want to.

    Edit: I also find it irritating that you still seem to be under the misapprehension that Dvap is just some guy tinkering around in his basement, and the results he got were not legitimate, and you seem to lack an understanding of what WTA is and is not. /end rant.
    Last edited by PLANofMAN; 01-10-2014 at 03:11 AM.


  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PLANofMAN View Post
    I called it a nice NET. You got upset at me and others, and announced that you were going to call it WTAE (Whole Tobacco Alkaloid via Ethanol). You then played the "Google Scientist" card and got smacked down by a real organic chemist.


    Aroma Ejuice and Dvap are not the only producers of WTA. They just happen to make the best WTA (IMO).


    You've made a very nice NET, with a reasonably high concentration of alkaloids (for a net), and have provided a great service for those who like NETs and for those who cannot import or purchase liquid nicotine in their countries (notably Canada and Australia).


    WTA is not a loosely defined trademarked product. It is 95% nicotine and about 5% other alkaloids. It is 100% pure tobacco alkaloids.
    please refer to: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...ersus-wta.html (It was also posted here in this thread).


    This is an excellent place to have a discussion. In here, the vendor can respond if they want to. They can also lock or delete the thread if they want to.


    Edit: I also find it irritating that you still seem to be under the misapprehension that Dvap is just some guy tinkering around in his basement, and the results he got were not legitimate, and you seem to lack an understanding of what WTA is and is not. /end rant.

    I thoroughly disagree on how the conversation has gone and on DVaps definition on WTA. Thankfully I can go read it again.... Yep I disagree. I do agree that DVap is producing a specific high purity product isolated through his non-disclosed presumably base/acid extraction. I have a variety of thoughts on potential concerns resulting of such a process but will reserve further comments until after I have acquired more concrete evidence.

    My primary issue is with some of the resulting connotations from your definition of WTA. Currently many members of the community are making various strength 'PG tobacco macerations' and based on your definition of WTA and test kit are assuming there is little - no nicotine content within them. While this may be true, it is unsubstantiated and may be far from the truth.

    I soaked 100 grams of tobacco in ethanol and concentrated it to a few grams of crude oil. This is obviously and quite clearly, nor claimed to be 100% pure. However it assuredly has a good amount of tobacco alkaloids within it, being as they most likely represent the full/natural/whole spectra of tobaccos alkaloid profile along with terpenes and yes some tar/chlorophyll/waxes. It does not seem far fetched to apply the term 'whole tobacco alkaloids' to it. It is most definitely too strong to consume/vape straight without dilution and should not be downplayed as being without nicotine because a certain type of test says so.

    Somehow it needs to be clarified that soaking tobacco in a solvent will indeed extract the tobaccos alkaloids along with the terpenes, plant oils, tar, chlorophyll, etc. Especially when considering people are adding additional nicotine to these extractions then using a acidic titration to label them as xxx mg/ml. This is resulting in mislabeled product on the market, this is bad for a variety of reasons.

    In my opinion, the entire point/message of WTA is that tobacco alkaloids are naturally synergistic, and some people may not even be addicted to nicotine but one of the other alkaloids. Lets not try to play word games to convince people that a simple tobacco soak/filter will not provide them with that synergistic alkaloid spectrum.
    Caution: I do not respond kindly to unfounded definitive statements.

  3. #23
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    I don't pretend to understand all the chemistry talk that's been thrown back and forth between the two threads but I have tried the wta liquid from all vendors who have sold it and have had wta made by Dvap on a few occasions. I have never gotten the "buzz" that you keep mentioning. I'm not saying whether there are or aren't alkaloids in your mix because I honestly don't know but your description of the affect that you feel from it has me wondering what is giving that affect.




    Sanity is overrated. I'd rather be happy.

  4. #24
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    It's not "my" definition of WTA. It is "the" definition of WTA, by the person who invented WTA e-liquid.

    Next you'll be saying that we shouldn't call Genisis style attys, Genisis, even though the guy who invented them called them Genisis
    Genisis = Genial Simpler Siebdampfer = ingeniously simple mesh steamer
    In Germany steamer means atomizer.

    I don't know what else to tell you other than you are welcome to have your own opinion about what WTA is, but you are wrong.
    Last edited by PLANofMAN; 01-10-2014 at 03:37 AM.


  5. #25
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    Jerry has been producing it commercially with the periodic help of DVap. It seems easy to forget who's been doing the gruntwork for a couple years, and apparently easy to forget that Jerry has considerable expertise and experience and overall say so on what is produced.

    DVap has absolute first dibs on defining WTA. Y'all probably should take care to honor the definition lest it become proprietary and anybody else will have to start calling their stuff FTA or something.
    hittman, MsChris and PLANofMAN like this.

  6. #26
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    I've been skeptical about soaks being effective at pulling alkaloids from tobacco largely due to the co-extracted material making it necessary to dilute the extract to such a point that any alkaloids extracted would end up at a low concentration. After testing a cold ethanol extraction myself, it's obvious enough to me that I've looked too closely at the limitations due to the required dilutions and not closely enough at the actual alkaloid recovery which is actually not all that bad.

    I will interject here my reply to the statement, "I am simply calling out the audacity to the claim that WTA (whole tobacco alkaloid) is something that only DVap can produce." There is no evidence to support this assertion, and to the contrary, ample evidence that this assertion lacks merit. While I am not associated with WholeCig in any way, I maintain a cordial relationship with their public facing individual (JFresh), and I have never claimed that the product is not WTA. It is well-known to anybody who has paid attention that I have always accepted their product as meeting the criteria of WTA. While I believe that Aroma makes the best WTA, it is up to the customers to decide that, each for themselves.

    A lot of people say a lot of things and there is a bumper crop of unsupported assumptions floating around, but one thing that I find exceedingly rare around here is somebody doing the work to produce and present actual numbers. I don't much care for the mad google-fu skills a lot of folks demonstrate around here. I've read a lot of good tobacco literature and I've read a lot of tobacco literature that's high-fiber nonsense. The damned thing is, it's awfully hard to tell one from the other. I've done a lot of experimentation and learned and shared a great deal over the past four plus years. Some folks assume that I'm primarily an organic chemist, but actually I'm more of an analytical chemist with admittedly a strong interest in some aspects of organic chemistry. I've been at it for over 25 years, and I try to speak up when I know what I'm talking about and keep quiet when I don't. I'm not particularly interested in proving myself to every gopher who pops out of a hole with a wad of tobacco and a set of glassware from eBay.

    Though the fact seems lost on him, I've actually been quite supportive of the testing that Lastlokean is doing on cold ethanol tobacco extracts. While it is true that I am not a fan of NET extractions, it would be silly of me to simply ignore them and pretend they don't exist. That being so, while I am not a fan, I'm not adverse to the idea of making NETs as clean as possible due to the fact that there are folks out there who like them and these folks will use them. After repeating Lastlokean's cold ethanol extraction on the same tobacco, I went the extra step to challenge my belief that such an extraction wouldn't produce a decent alkaloid yield. This required cleaning up the extract to isolate the alkaloids and convent them to a free base form suitable for titration. Somewhat to my surprise, I found that this extract did extract a fair percentage of alkaloids as salts. It was only after purifying them and converting to free base that I was able to confirm this. (You think he'd thank me? Still waiting on that). I freely confess to not having spent a great deal of effort characterizing such extracts since my focus has centered on more exhaustive extraction techniques, but having given it a bit of attention, I've learned something new (though not particularly useful to what interests me).

    Repeated extractions of various RYO tobaccos over the years using various techniques has given me a very clear approximation of the amount of alkaloids that can be obtained from these tobaccos. The figure I have arrived at is 1.2% by weight, and though not accepted by Lastlokean, I am quite confident in this figure. If we take a pretty standard cigarette containing 800 mg of tobacco, we see that 1.2% of that is 9.6 mg. If we generously accept the convention wisdom that a cigarette delivers 10% of the nicotine present, then we come up with 0.96 mg of nicotine delivered per cigarette. This is very generally in line with what we see in the wild (though some cigarettes do rate higher). Anyway, in my test, I figured that the cold ethanol extraction was good for around 500 mg of alkaloids or perhaps a 40% recovery. Not terribly bad. Anybody who doesn't care for my figures or who thinks they can do better is quite welcome to shut up, do the lab-work, and prove themselves right.

    On 6/27/2010, I posted the following in a blog:

    As far as getting flavor, that's a pretty easy question. If you soak and get a result that you like (either as a liquid in itself or as a flavor additive to regular eliquid) and you don't mind the extra wear and tear on your attys, you've done good. (Assuming you accept that anything that involves soaking tobacco will be less "safe" than good clean regular e-liquid).

    Fair and open-minded enough, I think.

    When it comes to alkaloids, the stronger one makes their NET liquid, the higher the alkaloid concentration will be. Though in the past I've figured that the alkaloid content of a NET would likely top out at 2 mg/mL due to the dilution required to tame the material present. Lately, I'm willing to entertain the idea of NETs perhaps as high as 5 mg/mL. And again, if some cares to prove me wrong, be my guest. If anybody's work on NETs might approach the 5 mg level, it's probably the work that Lastlokean is doing now.

    When it comes to alkaloid effects, any extraction that pulls out the alkaloid spread should exhibit these effects, more or less depending on the actual alkaloid concentration. I do agree with Hittman that the NET "buzz" I keep hearing about is general not experienced with WTA liquid. The effect is generally experienced as a "calming" effect.

    On what WTA means, I don't care even slightly what people think it means or think it should mean. It means what I say it means. It's the tobacco alkaloid isolate and anybody who can produce it is more than welcome to call it WTA. You're all welcome to the term "NET", it isn't mine and never was. You all can define and refine it any way you want.

    Just keep your hands off of my baby.
    Last edited by DVap; 01-10-2014 at 01:03 PM.
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  7. #27
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    I do appreciate the testing and verification done upon the cold ethanol soak for alkaloid content. Sorry I didn't acknowledge the positive support sooner. I was a bit defensive at the time as I was under, what I would qualify as, a personal attack(and it was not by you DVap.) It is quite clear that WTA is primarily recognized as your creation/development. I agree that what you define WTA as is a high quality and worthwhile product.

    Where I disagree, is in the leading of the public to believe there NET soaks or basic home extractions can potentially provide them with the synergistic effects of tobaccos minor alkaloids with nicotine. This resulting experience is undeniably superior to pure lab grade 99+% nicotine, or what I like to call 'classic e-juice'.

    It was in the defense of this concept that I got lost on the definition of terms. I do encourage that all those who are in the WTA market and read this consider the implication effects the definition of WTA as it stands. I understand your comparison regarding the claim made about 'tossing' some tobacco in some water and calling it WTA...

    The entire purpose of my ethanol concentration is to quantify in regards to something tangible the strength of tobacco alkaloids in naturally extracted tobacco. If that quantification is in regards of 'tobacco concentrate / ml' it is still a lot better than completely unknown VG soak. It is reasonable to assume that said concentrate has a certain minimum and maximum alkaloid percent.

    For relative comparison I would like to look at the essential oil market. They have simple distillation, steam distilled, fractionally distilled, cold pressed(expression), solvent extraction (absolute), co2 extraction, super critical co2 extraction, etc. etc. This market still acknowledges that cold pressed oil is indeed a crude/dilute low grade essential oil... Yet the people making the highest grade critical CO2 extracts are not claiming they are something other than a more pure/concentrated of the same essential plant oil.

    Look at the classified/vendor pages here and/or a quick Google and/or ECF search will show that there are a lot of presumptions and misinformation around about WTA. There are also new vendors (not to name names) springing up selling WTA that may or may not have the same process, quality control, testing, etc. For the term WTA to be defined as something safe and reputable would require practical/legal control over who can sell something as WTA. If instead products were sold as 'Pure WTA via A/B' or 'Steam Distilled WTA' or 'Solvent Extracted WTA' it would be based on a company trademark/standard of process and resulting quality in product that would set them apart. I obviously do not know the exact process any one group is using to isolate there nicotine but I could easily deduce how it may be done in through a variety of methods all yielding relatively similar products. However due to various temperatures/pressures/alkalinity/acidity required for various process will most certainly have an impact on the resulting product. If this impact is negligible or significant is not really ascertainable without extensive testing.

    It is completely plausible that some various non-alkaloid flavonoid / aromatic volatile play a significant role in the effects of tobacco through some type of enzymatic process. Based on the effects, experiences with essential oils and developments in fields such as aromatherapy it would not be all that surprising. If such were the case one may be better off with a flavorful 'steam-distilled' tobacco concentrate, or solvent extracted absolute. I obviously have no analytic 'evidence' to demonstrate such is true. Yet, there certainly is far from being outside the realm of feasible, or prior-demonstrated false.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lastlokean View Post
    Where I disagree, is in the leading of the public to believe there NET soaks or basic home extractions can potentially provide them with the synergistic effects of tobaccos minor alkaloids with nicotine. This resulting experience is undeniably superior to pure lab grade 99+% nicotine, or what I like to call 'classic e-juice'.
    Not sure I understand the opinion here as written. Did you mean to say you disagree with leading the public to believe that their NETs and home extractions can't potentially provide the synergistic effects? They can, but are significantly limited by the magnitude of the dilution required to make such materials vapable. Cold ethanol appears to offer a route to a NET with a higher alkaloid concentration due to it's cleanliness relative to other NETs.

    It is completely plausible that some various non-alkaloid flavonoid / aromatic volatile play a significant role in the effects of tobacco through some type of enzymatic process. Based on the effects, experiences with essential oils and developments in fields such as aromatherapy it would not be all that surprising. If such were the case one may be better off with a flavorful 'steam-distilled' tobacco concentrate, or solvent extracted absolute. I obviously have no analytic 'evidence' to demonstrate such is true. Yet, there certainly is far from being outside the realm of feasible, or prior-demonstrated false.
    While possible that some of the non-alkaloid content of tobacco might play a role in the effects, the cost in co-extracted gunk is too high for me. When giving my opinion or recommendation, it applies to what I would do, and represents an "if I were you" scenario. But again, everybody has to weigh everything and make their decisions themselves.



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