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Current thoughts

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by , 08-21-2011 at 11:44 AM (5463 Views)
The following is from a forum post I made recently. I've been involved for some time with the "Whole Tobacco Alkaloid" concept, and when reading back through my blog, I find I've spoken with a certainty that's probably misplaced... or at least overly-confident. We think we know a lot of things, we convince ourselves of this, but what do we really know about vaping when it doesn't yet have a long-term history?

In context, the comments below represent my current thinking, which supersedes my former thoughts posted in previous blog posts, at least as far as my level of certainty about things.

I guess the thoughts expressed below were brought on by recent attention to whole tobacco alkaloids, and my somewhat discomfort at being oft-quoted and trusted by so many (which I appreciate, but still find myself uncomfortable with).

-------------------------------------

I've been posting a lot of wet-blanket stuff, you know, "stay away from WTA unless you're really fighting analogs!" One reason for this, I suppose, is that we have to remember that the whole realm of vaping is even now rather new, and we don't know as much as we sometimes think we do. I guess I'm big on safety, and for as much as we want vaping to be safe, we're really only persuaded that vaping is safer than smoking, and that smoking is probably a good bit safer than driving really fast with your eyes closed!

The whole discussion around vaping is really about nothing less than our lives. Who here doesn't think it would be great if smoking was actually safe? I'd do a carton a day, really. I'm the first to say that if I were given my choice, I'd not vape at all, be active, get back into shape, and do all those healthy things that make my doctor tell me I can have TWO lollipops when I leave my annual physical. But I can't put down the e-cigarette yet...

We believe in harm-reduction... the idea that we can come out net-positive by replacing one bad habit with another not-so-bad habit. We know smoking is really bad for our health and longevity, but we only believe that our chosen not-so-bad habit of vaping is less bad. I really don't want anybody here to say "Well, WTA is a lot safer than smoking because DVap said...". DVap didn't say. DVap did say to go find a mountain, a meadow, a seashore, an unspoiled place and breath the air. BUT... failing to do all those good things I should be doing, and still tethered to an e-cigarette, I am simply persuaded, like many, that vaping is safer than smoking. But I wouldn't want the first of you here to take *my* word for it. I feel similarly about WTA. I believe that WTA is a safer alternative than smoking, but I don't know this.

The only thing I really know about WTA is anecdotal via the folks who have had the opportunity to try it... that WTA does take the edge off for folks who still struggle with analogs while vaping. Then again, so does snus (The Swedish stuff), and I'm far more persuaded that snus is safe than I am about vaping nicotine or vaping WTA.

So, in the end, all I'm really saying is that each of us has to do our own thinking and put our health in our own hands. Don't take my word for it, when in doubt, breath the air.

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  1. tnt56's Avatar
    Very well written and worded my friend, for I also crave the cigarettes, The WTA does help calm that down somewhat. But then I'm also a person that will use Swedish snus and vape WTA at the same time. I'd love to breath the fresh mountain air.
    Great blog. I tip my hat to you.
  2. Jeffafa's Avatar
    Very well put....
    dontae82 and KevinGibsone like this.
  3. Starlyte2's Avatar
    I do breath fresh mountain air (at least as fresh as is possible considering world wide pollution, radioactivity, and whatever!) but despite that, WTA Eliquid cut down my daily consumption from around 10ml to 3 or 4ml. I admit that I stopped a nearly 45 year old smoking habit, but I chain-vaped, and apart from the health side, which didn't really worry me, as I consider it's a long way better than 2 packs a day, it was a hassle filling up my preferred clearo of the moment, a Kanger Evod. It only holds around 1.5ml of liquid, so either I had to "prefer" some other device, or pass half the day filling the damned thing .
    After a few days with my first WTA liquid, I no longer had sudden cravings for smoky cigarettes, my bottle of high nic % (1.8%, but I usually use 1.2%) has rested untouched, and, best of al I was filling my tiny clearos 2, maybe 3 times a day. And after 2 months I'm still at 1.2% and the same quantity .
    I thought it was psychological, but it isn't, and now I'm waiting on a vape mail of unflavoured WTA, as I love DIYing my juice.
    So, as the initiator of WTAs, I thank you sincerely, from the bottom of my heart and lungs, not to mention sanity .
  4. DVap's Avatar
    Good to hear, Starlyte!

    While I've pretty much disowned any solid, verifiable knowledge of the overall safety of WTA e-liquid versus nic-only e-liquid, it stands to reason that while perhaps not as safe as a nic-only liquid due to the increased number of components, WTA e-liquid, containing only a tiny fraction of what gets burned in a cigarette, is much safer than lighting up a stinky.
    dontae82, Starlyte2 and Jeremy S. like this.
  5. adrkaushal's Avatar
    Darn .. I vape 2 ml a day and thought I was on chain vaping .. but now .. oh well, should I be happy that I vape only 2 ml a day? lol .. I'm trying to cut it down to only 1 ml for sure
    dontae82, Starlyte2 and Mikegold like this.
  6. DVap's Avatar
    2 mL a day is nothing.
  7. nakmuay7's Avatar
    I often vape at least double the amount you are consuming. I can find i go through a whole 20ml on a night out drinking beer which is an extreme case but very possible still.
    Starlyte2 likes this.
  8. adrkaushal's Avatar
    20 ml in one night
    Freedombadeaux likes this.
  9. DrBeaker's Avatar
    Exactly Dvap! I wish we could get some more University research working on this. WTA extractions I've made starting with 3 packs of cigaretts could yeald weeks worth of eliquid. I figured I would have smoked those 3 packs in a day and a half. And I'm not catching it on fire and inhaling the smoke. I don't vape the WTA I've made much. Just bioassay... and share what I've learned. I hope it may help someone stay off the cigaretts.
    Starlyte2 likes this.
  10. kinabaloo's Avatar
    But remember that WTA is generally consumed in lower quantities. And that suggests a second advantage - it is more 'balanced'. So in two ways actually numerically superior in terms of risk reduction. (Have to give a nod to the chance that not all alkaloids are as 'safe' as nicotine, but given the tiny quantities and that the body can handle bad stuff if not overwhelmed, I side with WTA.

    [QUOTE=DVap;bt8860]Good to hear, Starlyte!

    While I've pretty much disowned any solid, verifiable knowledge of the overall safety of WTA e-liquid versus nic-only e-liquid, it stands to reason that while perhaps not as safe as a nic-only liquid due to the increased number of components, WTA e-liquid, containing only a tiny fraction of what gets burned in a cigarette, is much safer than lighting up a stinky.[/QUOTE]
  11. kinabaloo's Avatar
    If it were possible to live forever (or even say 200 years) by following bestest practice in all ways, I would go for that. But in reality none of us are likely to go past 100 still active.

    The reason to go to the mountains, and any other special place, is not because it's 'healthy' but because it is magic, wonderful, life!

    Live life, don't stress out over every minutiai- that's the way to be healthy - stress is the big danger, as it impairs repair and detox.

    ps: can you imagine how much junk we ingest and inhale every day - even water is full of hundreds of pharma drugs, agri and fracking chemicals, cosmic radiation, atom bomb test particles (still), factory pollution, volcanic emissions, space dust, microwaves, toxic fumes from carpeting and furnishings and cars. GMOs might even wipe us all out for good.

    pps: most of the harm from smoking is not actually from anything in tobacco itself, or even from combustion products, but from radioactive residue / absorbed from the (cheaper) mineral fertiliser used (rather than organic matter fertiliser). See: [url=http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/po.htm]Polonium (Po) - Chemical properties, Health and Environmental effects[/url] (erroneous statement about filters aside)
    inf0junkE likes this.
    Updated 12-15-2013 at 04:16 AM by kinabaloo
  12. GeorgeIIII's Avatar
    Gotta say that I agree with you DVAP. You've hit on a point that's been stirring in my mind for awhile now. I'm new to vaping, only been off analogs for a couple of months. My body is still transitioning from being a smoker to a vaper. I'm only now learning of some of the possible side-effects.

    Is vaping safe? Hmmm... I can't say with any certainty that it is. I can only tell you that, since I started vaping as an exclusive thing, and ditching the cigs (finally), that my body feels somewhat better. I breathe a bit easier than I once did, I seem to have a bit more pep in my step. Hasn't drastically changed my overall health, but it seems to have been a positive change nonetheless.

    What no one talks about, at least that I've seen, is the fact that we are still putting potentially harmful things into our bodies, even with vaping. I don't know all of the pro's and con's on VG and PG, but I think we're all well aware that nicotine is basically a poison, and that by taking it in, regardless of its form, we are doing some kind of damage to our bodies over time. I don't have to worry so much with my lungs now, but the old ticker will still have issues down the road. I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm still basically addicted to nicotine. If nothing else, I can say that I smell better, and as a result, I have received more social opportunities when I'm out and about.

    Vaping is still young, relatively speaking. Scientists will continue to research the effects, politicians will continue to debate the social issues. Lobbyists will do as they always have, and the idea of vaping has become akin to smoking, so far as they're concerned.

    All I can say, is that I treat vaping almost the same as smoking, with some exceptions. I don't vape around non-smokers, I try to avoid vaping in public places. Just basic etiquette and consideration is all. I've reached a point in my life where it will be difficult to extend my lifespan by simply giving up a bad habit. At the most, if I quit vaping now, I might get another decade. But since heart disease and so many cancers run on both sides of my family, I don't think it'll make much of a difference in the long run.

    My best advice would be that, if vaping works for you, great! If not, well too bad. Try something different. We all have our vices besides. At least I don't have to worry about vaping too much and becoming intoxicated and then hitting someone with my car. My habit harms only me. There's no second-hand "smoke" to worry about anymore. Just harmless water vapor.

    Anyway, just my two cents.
    dontae82 likes this.
  13. kinabaloo's Avatar
    [QUOTE=GeorgeIIII;bt10060]Gotta say that I agree with you DVAP. You've hit on a point that's been stirring in my mind for awhile now. I'm new to vaping, only been off analogs for a couple of months. My body is still transitioning from being a smoker to a vaper. I'm only now learning of some of the possible side-effects.

    Is vaping safe? Hmmm... I can't say with any certainty that it is. I can only tell you that, since I started vaping as an exclusive thing, and ditching the cigs (finally), that my body feels somewhat better. I breathe a bit easier than I once did, I seem to have a bit more pep in my step. Hasn't drastically changed my overall health, but it seems to have been a positive change nonetheless.

    What no one talks about, at least that I've seen, is the fact that we are still putting potentially harmful things into our bodies, even with vaping. I don't know all of the pro's and con's on VG and PG, but I think we're all well aware that nicotine is basically a poison, and that by taking it in, regardless of its form, we are doing some kind of damage to our bodies over time. I don't have to worry so much with my lungs now, but the old ticker will still have issues down the road. I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm still basically addicted to nicotine. If nothing else, I can say that I smell better, and as a result, I have received more social opportunities when I'm out and about.

    Vaping is still young, relatively speaking. Scientists will continue to research the effects, politicians will continue to debate the social issues. Lobbyists will do as they always have, and the idea of vaping has become akin to smoking, so far as they're concerned.

    All I can say, is that I treat vaping almost the same as smoking, with some exceptions. I don't vape around non-smokers, I try to avoid vaping in public places. Just basic etiquette and consideration is all. I've reached a point in my life where it will be difficult to extend my lifespan by simply giving up a bad habit. At the most, if I quit vaping now, I might get another decade. But since heart disease and so many cancers run on both sides of my family, I don't think it'll make much of a difference in the long run.

    My best advice would be that, if vaping works for you, great! If not, well too bad. Try something different. We all have our vices besides. At least I don't have to worry about vaping too much and becoming intoxicated and then hitting someone with my car. My habit harms only me. There's no second-hand "smoke" to worry about anymore. Just harmless water vapor.

    Anyway, just my two cents.[/QUOTE]

    Some people are allergic to PG, you'll know it fast enough if so. Otherwise, if you don't feel vaping is far better, just quit (it'll be hell for a week or so, but only a week or so). I find it really annoying that people will try to have it both ways - sure, it's your choice, vape or smoke or quit all; but don't say I choose vaping but then say probably it's just as bad ... Make up your mind !!

    You remind me of Dvap in this regard - sitting on all sides of every fence, just because ...

    I am not going over the differences yet again ... but I'll sya this - everyone is different, see what works for you. And pleeeeease avoid scare stories about things you cearly don't at all understand
    Updated 01-01-2014 at 02:19 AM by kinabaloo
  14. PLANofMAN's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeIIII
    ...
    What no one talks about, at least that I've seen, is the fact that we are still putting potentially harmful things into our bodies, even with vaping. I don't know all of the pro's and con's on VG and PG, but I think we're all well aware that nicotine is basically a poison, and that by taking it in, regardless of its form, we are doing some kind of damage to our bodies over time. I don't have to worry so much with my lungs now, but the old ticker will still have issues down the road. I know this, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm still basically addicted to nicotine. If nothing else, I can say that I smell better, and as a result, I have received more social opportunities when I'm out and about...
    I can say that caffeine is basically a poison, and oxygen (while not a poison) is corrosive, in fact, there are many "healthy" things that we need to survive...but if taken in sufficient quantities are poisonous. Hemp seed is the most nutritious food source on the planet, but the plant that grows from them is a hallucinogen and a controlled substance.

    Nicotine is a memory and thought process enhancer and it has been theorized that nicotine can counter some of the effects of Alzheimer's disease. On the other hand, perhaps you are right and my ingestion of nicotine will cause some negative health effects...

    The studies done by the Swedes in their 20+ years of observing people who use snus (at much, much higher nicotine levels than most vapers) have convinced me that the nicotine levels we vape at are no more dangerous than the caffeine found in a cup of tea.
    pefdnvr likes this.
  15. Freedombadeaux's Avatar
    I haven't read through this whole thread but I compare vaping to other abusive things I done throughout my whole life that have hurt myself and others.

    Alcohol...I'm not puking, sleeping around, offending and hurting people physically and emotionally. Let along cursing God because he didn't do what I demanded!

    Smoking cigarettes...Stinky, burn holes, coughing or coughing up crap and leaving a conversation because I need to go outside!

    Drugs...all the above plus stealing
    Sex...all the above including hurting families
    Food..Vaping allows me to taste everything with out shoving it in my mouth (there was no pretty way to say that)

    Above the rest! I thank and talk to God more now and thank him for giving me a way out! Expanding my social environment world wide and teaching me things I never knew about conduction, metals, glass and art! Peace vapers!
  16. Starlyte2's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by DrBeaker
    Exactly Dvap! I wish we could get some more University research working on this. WTA extractions I've made starting with 3 packs of cigaretts could yeald weeks worth of eliquid. I figured I would have smoked those 3 packs in a day and a half. And I'm not catching it on fire and inhaling the smoke. I don't vape the WTA I've made much. Just bioassay... and share what I've learned. I hope it may help someone stay off the cigaretts.
    Felicitations! But I must admit that I hope the WTA I use is made with 100% tobacco, Bio if I could choose. It really does keep my vaping in check, now 2-3ml a day at 9mg/ml, and cigarettes disgust me, as far as the taste goes.
    So, personally and from other WTA users, thank you for your work on it, and most of all, FOR SHARING your results

    All the best

    PS. It would be really useful to get another University research going, but I guess it's pretty hard to lance. I hope it will happen eventually...
    The WTA could be a real aid for the "lost cause" smokers, I know it helped me, and I'm a vape only woman now.
    Did you ever consider if smoking and the hard core smokers especially who can't stop, has anything to do with the so called "addictive personality", or the addiction to other substances, i.e. alcohol, tranquillizers, etc...a long etc ? I'm not that up on the parts of the brain that are affected by different addictions, but I've been told some are connected (and please correct me if this is wrong !) so if you're a hard drinker, or take a calment or three since G was a boy, smoking may be harder for you to stop than it would be if you "only" smoke.
    More University research independent of the Big P, or Big T, would be so invaluable, and help us to understand why Nic only doesn't work for every one.
    Although vaping is already much more successful than those useless (almost) patches and so on.
    Updated 04-09-2014 at 01:48 PM by Starlyte2 (PS)
  17. DVap's Avatar
    But patches do work! It's called the placebo effect.
  18. mountaingal's Avatar
    I started smoking at 15, both parents smoked. In all my years of smoking, I never made it past 24 hours of no cigs. I never, really tried to quit, I was just fooling myself. I would get nervous if I only had 5 left, "where was the next pack coming from?". Now, after two years of vaping and saving over 1K, I find I treat vaping just like my cigs, "when can I vape next?". I use 24mg nic in a 50/50 PG/VG base. Addictive personalities like mine, ALWAYS, find ways to get what we need. If I go out to lunch with my boss, who doesn't know I vape, I chew nicotine gum, until I can get back to my vaping. In reading about WTA's I wondered if they would "take the edge off" my need to constantly vape? I believe I would still NEED nicotine in some form or another, gum or vape, it doesn't matter to me. My only other real addiction is gambling.
  19. ronchinoy's Avatar
    I call my NET the something missing juice.
    Also consider myself an addictive personality having being addicted to pretty much all the drugs on the face of the earth at one time. (30+ Years Clean now).

    Am sure that all us types. Go thru the same issues.
    WHich is stop smoking.
    Then vape.
    Then up our nic to the point where we are getting physically sick from taking in so much nic.

    Thanks to DVAP and his posts. I figured it out what was going on.
    Now I have a tank filled with my NET.
    I dont chain vape it. Just a few tokes in the morning to help me get a good BM.
    Then a few tokes at night to help me sleep.
    Sure beats 40 Analogues a day I was on.

    Also found that my nic level and juice consumption has dropped drastically.
    One day we will be able to buy a pill which we pop and it will contain the alkaloids we need.

    For me its like a light switch. One drop and I can feel the missing pieces of my brain pop back into action.
    If I cant vape for some reason i.e. work etc. Just put a drop on your tongue and your sorted.

    Just use organic leaf when making the NET.
    Yes I do feel guilty that in effect its almost as good / bad as smoking.

    You only try this if you are really really suffering. If your doing fine on nic. Consider your self lucky and dont even think about this.

    Anybody who is 4+ months off. And still has absurdly strong urge to smoke. Even after taking your nic up to 36 MG. Would be a good candidate to try the NET / WTA route. Else its best avoided.

    I can understand the tone of Guilt in Dvpas msg. Smoking WTA is not cool. And not something to be toyed with. It is no where as safe as just doing Nic.

    Even if you do get on it. Try and cut your consumption down. i.e. wean your self off it slowly.
    mountaingal likes this.
  20. mountaingal's Avatar
    Thanks to DVAP and his posts. I figured it out what was going on.
    Now I have a tank filled with my NET.
    I dont chain vape it. Just a few tokes in the morning to help me get a good BM.
    Then a few tokes at night to help me sleep.
    Sure beats 40 Analogues a day I was on.

    Also found that my nic level and juice consumption has dropped drastically.
    One day we will be able to buy a pill which we pop and it will contain the alkaloids we need.

    For me its like a light switch. One drop and I can feel the missing pieces of my brain pop back into action.
    If I cant vape for some reason i.e. work etc. Just put a drop on your tongue and your sorted.

    ​Thanks, I will try the NET way, maybe I can cut back some, like you,. As it is, I vape about 4 to 5ml of 24 mg's a day. I have only gotten a little queasy when I was trying out new juices.
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