The MYTH OF 2nd HAND VAPOR

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The MYTH OF 2nd HAND VAPOR by P.OPUS
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...08446-myth-second-hand-vape.html#post11723931

I keep hearing about the perceived hazards of "second hand vape". Not only from newcomers, but from experienced vapers who should know better


So let's see if we can debunk this once and for all.


POINT ONE:
The ingredients of typical ejuice are as follows:
1. USP grade Propylene Glygol,
2. USP grade Vegetable Glycerin
3. USP grade Flavorinigs
4. Water,
5. Nicotine


Of these 5 ingredients, 3 of them have already been evaluated by the FDA as GRAS, or Generally Recognized As Safe. and one of them, H20, should go without saying. This means for the majority of people, they are safe. Don't bring allergies into the equation because it is a red herring. People are allergic to peanuts but last time I checked there are no restrictions on me on eating peanuts in public. Also for those of you who still won't let the allergy analogy die, you can read point two below. Anyway the point being unless there is some magical transformation that takes place, you can't mix ingredients that are GRAS and get a poison cocktail. It doesn't happen.


POINT TWO: The only "non-safe" ingredient, is Nicotine. So let's take a look at this danger from a practical standpoint.
Let's assume a person vapes 1ml of juice in an hour. This is high, but it makes the math easier. Let's also assume that it is 12mg/ml. which is a common "middle of the road" concentration.


If this person were to NOT absorb any of the inhaled e-juice, then the total amount of nicotine released as vapor would be 12mg.


A standard 10ftx10ftx10ft room (not large by any means) is 1000 cubic feet this is roughly 28317 liters.


So let's look before we tackle the Nicotine argument, lets tackle the "PG/VG" issue. Assume 1ml of 100% PG solution were released into the room as pure vapor. The room would contain 1ml/28317 liters, or 1ml in 28,317,000 ml This is a concentration of PG of .035 ppm. So we can put that one to bed.


12mg/28317 cubic liters equates to .4 micrograms of nicotine per liter.


According to the New England Journal of Medicine on the Nicotine Content of Vegetables, A person exposed to 1 microgram/liter of second hand smoke, would need to be exposed to that environment for 3 hours to absorb 1 microgram of nicotine.


Thus a non vaper would need to be exposed to .4 micrograms of nicotine per liter for 3 hours to absorb .4 micrograms of nicotine.


How much is .4 micrograms of nicotine? Well to put it into perspective, 59.3 grams of Potato contain .4 micrograms of nicotine.


2 oz of potato folks.


Remember folks. Were talking about 1ml of 12mg/ml e-juice, in a small 10x10x10 room with no ventilation and the assumption that none of this is absorbed by the Vaper himself.


BOTTOM LINE: A person in such a room would be exposed to .035 ppm PG vapor and would need to sit in the room for 3 hours to be exposed to the same amount of nicotine as naturally contained in 2 oz of potatoes.


And you wonder why most of us think it is an absurdity to see second hand vape as a public hazard in anyway, even in a tightly confined space?


The Nicotine Content of Vegetables - New England Journal of Medicine


QED

Comments

Uma
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...446-myth-second-hand-vape-2.html#post11726319

By P.OPUS , with more definition, in reply to a troll.

I actually made some of the assumptions ludicrous because I wanted to show how the math works.

Some of the ludicrous assumptions.

1. Vaper absorbs none of the e-cig vapor.
2. 10 x 10 x 10 room has no ventilation... Thus no dilution of concentration.
3. All suspended nicotine in mixture is turned into vapor.
4. All suspended PG is turned into vapor.
5. Vaping performed is 1ml /hour which is pretty high.

I tried to show the math. Later on, we found studies that show that inhalation on concentrations much larger than we calculated were done and no health detriment was found.

1ml of e-liquid released in 1000 cubic feet of air.....simple math
12 mg of nicotine released into 1000 cubic feet of air..... simple math.

The point is, even if these materials were more hazardous than they are, the concentrations we are talking about are insignificant.

When you start adding additional parts to the equation that you mentioned.
..
Bar's are larger than 10 x 10 x 10
Vapers rarely vape 1ml per hour
Vapers will absorb most of the vape
Bars have ventilation

Then the concentrations fall even further.

There are detectable toxins in almost any ounce of seawater, that doesn't stop us from going to the beach or into the water. The fact is they are of such low concentrations as to not be of concern.

That was my point.

I don't need studies when the math alone tells me there's nothing to worry about. We're not talking Polonium here....

And if you needed studies, we provided links to many. Many of which were done in concentrations thousands of times larger than we calculated. We provided links to how PG is actually used to sanitize air. And the only thing you could come back with is that Dow recommends you don't breathe it? Really?
 
Uma
Another scenario detailed, in response to a troll.
By P.OPUS

@@@@@@@@@@@@@
By the Troll
The OP's theory is based on math of one person vaping in a small room, over a period of 3 hours. This is not repeated exposure, just one time occurrence. Scientifically, how can we honestly say that is an absurdity to see second hand vape as a public hazard in anyway, even in a tightly confined space in the long-term when studies have only been done short-term?

I'll be 100% honest here, you want proof from me that second-hand vapor is harmful, I can't provide that, as no studies to my knowledge have been done that cover the long-term.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

P.OPUS RESPONDS
I'll play your numbers game......

I used one person, vaping 1ml/hour puts in .035 ppm in a 10x10x10 room (with no ventilation).

Lets squeeze 100 people in that room (can't do it, but lets' play...shall we?) If they were all vaping the same rate, with no ventilation that still only puts 3.5 ppm of PG in the room (again assuming none of them absorb any of the PG).

The 1947 study on monkeys used continuous concentrations to 112ppm continuously for 13 months. And there were no toxic affects found on the animals. (http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp189.pdf). It appears on the same paper, that Rats were exposed to 51ppm for 90 days, 5 days a week, 6 hours a day and some nasal hemorraging was noted).

These rates are at least 50 times more than stuffing 100 people in 10x10x10 room for 1 hour at 1ml/hour.

Let's take those 100 people and put them into a more reasonable 30x20x10 room. This is still a small bar, mind you. Oh Oh.....Now the volume has increased to 6000 cubic feet. This equals 169901.1 liters or 169901100 ml. so lets take 100ml/169901100ml and you get
1ml/1699011ml. We've now decreased our concentration back down .59 ppm

My assertion, is that there is NO mathematical formula in which you will be able to fit enough vapers into a room to produce anywhere near a continuous exposure of 1ppm PG let alone the 51ppm to 112ppm that the test subjects were exposed to.

Oh and we have YET to take into consideration ventilation....Did I mention that???!!

If you can come up with a reasonable scenario in which this occurs. Please let me know. The truth of the matter is, you would need to put so many people in such a small space that they would suffocate before they reached anywhere near the concentrations that approached the level of the test subjects.
 
Uma
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...446-myth-second-hand-vape-4.html#post11735468

In response to the same question about Flavors.

By P.OPUS

Do you mean the same flavorings, artificial sweetners and colorants that are used in the food that is being served at the establishment? E-juice contains...what....1% flavoring and coloring. So I take 1ml of flavoring and release it into 169901100ml of air? Are you really going to go there?

Does OSHA worry about the use of these flavorings in the food that is being prepared in the kitchen?

All my numbers were WITHOUT VENTILATION. With the modern ventilation systems that are in most public indoor places, then you have to add the rate of air exchange.
 
Uma
Continued...

a 5000 square foot environment with 100 people vaping continuously at 1 ml/hour. I mention no ventilation because that will cause concentrations to be the most, and you don't need 100% air exchange to lower this "WORST CASE" scenario.

5000 with 10 foot celilings equates to 50000 cubic feet which equals 1415842.3 liters or 1415842300 ml (that's 1.4 BILLION) ml.

If they vaped for 8 hours, you are looking at exposure of 800ml/14815842300ml which mathematically is .53 ppm. And this is not .53ppm from time zero. This is a maximum exposure after 8 hours.
 
Uma
EddardinWinter talks about HVAQ
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...446-myth-second-hand-vape-6.html#post11741275

Most commercial spaces have an outside air ventilation requirement based on maximum occupancy. Here is the Ashrae Standard.

Not every space complies with this, but most do. One important factor in the formula is: The greater the number of occupants of the space, the more fresh air is required. Only in residential spaces is air permitted to be recycled, since it is believed infiltration will provide adequate ventilation.

Also, any building that has a kitchen has to "make up" the exhaust air taken from the hoods in the kitchen to maintain a net positive pressure in the space. So in any restaurant, there is generally ventilation that greatly exceeds the Ashrae standard.

Add to this that P.opus does his example in a situation with zero ventilation. This just will not happen in 95% of commercial spaces. The minimum Ashrae standard is 5 CFM per person. So each minute, five cubic feet of fresh outdoor air must be introduced into the space. Also this calculation is based on MAXIMUM occupancy. So 98% of the time, there is a much greater ventilation quantity in the space than is needed. If the space is at 50% occupancy, then 10 cubic feet of fresh air per minute is coming in to the space. Depending on the space size, you are experiencing many air changes per hour.
 
Uma
Air Continued by EddardinWinter
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...446-myth-second-hand-vape-6.html#post11741559

I would also add this, with modern Energy Recovery Ventilation (ERV) units, the cost of supplying nearly 100% outside air to a space is quite affordable. These units pass the total exhaust/return leaving a space over one or more heat wheels. The wheels grab the energy from the leaving air stream and transfer it into the incoming ventilation air. A nice double wheel ERV can recover 75% of the energy in design-day conditions (extreme hot or cold) to make the energy cost of ventilation in the space quite low.

I have designed a space like this for a local restaurant owner who wishes to add a "Cigar Bar" in his establishment. I guarantee a non-smoker can be in the same room as a cigar smoker and experience a higher indoor air quality than any room in his house if this system is implemented. I am going to monitor the LEED IAQ test requirements of air hazards for one year in this bar as part of my contract, and I will be happy to share with anyone interested. Probably no one...

My point is, there is no logical reason that indoor smoking should not be permitted with a properly designed ventilation system. Designing a system to accommodate vaping? I think ASHRAE minimum ventilation requirements already do.
 

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