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Thread: Message from Bill Godshall of Smokefree Pennsylvania

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by westcoast2 View Post
    I have debated with Bill on and off for sometime and though we often disagree at least we agree that e-cigs are less harmful than cigs, though nonplussed as to why the comparison is needed.

    I do though disagree that they should be treated alongside other tobacco products and have argued this point on other forums. They are something apart.
    Thanks for joining us. Are you able to address any of my questions then (in post #5 above)? I'd appreciate your insight. As well, it's not clear if Bill intends to return...

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    in the great words of peter griffin...lol Come on ....cmoooon
    i think that the ecig is a great idea, i wish they were around or i known about them before my mother died. im not saying that ecigs would have saved her life but if she would have been able to get off of analogs maybe it would have helped her a bit. she didnt die of smoking directly but im sure that it didnt help.

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    I havent fully explored what the ramifications would be, but was thinking earlier the best scenario might be if we could get ecigs and eliquid legally defined as a dietary supplement.

    That, or have it have its own seperate status, like alcohol does.

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    Kill that idea. In banning nicotine water, the FDA made it clear that any product containing nicotine won't qualify as a dietary supplement. While nicotine is found in small amounts in some foods, the FDA said it will never be a "supplement".

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    jamie, hi

    just to recap what you asked
    Can you please help me understand the implications of regulating them as tobacco products? I'm concerned that this might include:
    a) reduction of nicotine to ineffective levels
    b) ecigs pulled into tobacco smoking bans
    c) ecigs pulled into tobacco taxation
    d) ecigs pulled into other tobacco-related policies such as employment

    I'm not entirely comfortable promoting this with these outstanding concerns.
    b, c & d are very legitimate concerns. Bill has a strong anti-smoking agenda and is very much pro-smokeless tobacco. If the e-cig gets dragged into being categorized alongside tobacco then it would be enable a split between 'less harmful' and 'harmful' tobacco products, which would be to the detriment of the e-cig because of the concerns you raise. Also, the anti-smoking groups have said there is no safe cigarette, which would by extension mean there is no save e-cigarette, just because the words sound the same and they would atttempt to have it banned, regardless of how misguided that was. This would also suggests they has other motives rather than Public Health.

    I have left question a to one side for the moment as it complicates the issue, though in fulness of time that question will be answered. Without the complication of nicotine, what seems to be going on?

    I have read a number of things here and elsewhere. It seems to boil down to a question of definitions. The FDA seem to want to classify the device as whole. Is this legitimate? It may take a court case to figure it out. Is a car classified as a petroleum product just because it uses petrol? Personaly I do not think so.

    The name e-cig doesn't help as it instantly associates it with cigs. So what is this device and what is intended for? Well, it is (IMHO) clearly a Personal Vaporizer (PV). Its intended purpose is to vapourize a liquid to enable it to be inhaled by an individual.

    For some that enables them to use it as an e-cig, by using a nicotine mixture, it can be used as an alternative to ordinary (analog if you like) cigarettes. The FDA seem to want to ascribe this as its primary purpose. Yet there are vaporizers on the market designed for herbal mixtures that are not intnended to be e-cigs. So one of the uses of a PV is as an e-cig. Yet this raises an interesting question. Can the PV be called an e-cig when Vaping a zero nic mix? I think not.

    If I gave you a PV without nic you would not 'smoke' it you would vape it, wouldn't you? There is no combustion and so the only similarity is that inhalation takes place. Is coffee the same as tea just because you drink it? Note the UK government has banned any lit substance (tobacco, herbs etc) that is capable of being smoked. So clearly HMG make a distinction between burning (combustion) and vaporizing.

    So I believe it should be categorized separately. The only point where analogs and PVs meet is in the use of nicotine, puting aside the similarity in the bodily actions whcih AFIK harm nobody. Nicotine is well regulated already and to partially answer question a), if a PV does use nicotine then some regulation, qulaity control mainly, would probably be a good thing for the nicotine mix the PV uses.

    As you can see I split apart the 'device' and the use of nicotine. Many people do not do this (many here do) and so see it purly in terms of a cigarette. As a result they have many misconceptions. This is understandable.

    Because of this confusion, the PV is possibly seen as harmful to others. Many bans were passed due to people's concerns over the health impacts of SHS/ETS. The message has been so effective that anything resembling smoking triggers a sort of smoking psychosis, that hand waiving, fake coughing syndrome. A classic was recently recounted on another thread here where someone vaped and a women faked a cough and suffered an olfactory hallucination (smelling non-existant smoke) .

    Another confusing aspect when tieing into tobacco, is the smoking cessation, NRT aspect. This gets into problems associated with medical safety and efficacy. Reading here a PV using nic does seem to help people either give up or cut down. This could be considered a side effect rather than its main purpose, thus avoiding the minefield of medical regulation.

    So far in the UK only trading standards (again AFIK) have questioned PVs and mainly on the issue of labeling and packaging not the atomzier/battery. It seems (unless there is a change) that once properly labeled nicotine cartridges and liquids of suitable potency can be sold. So once again we see the UK making a distinction between the PV and the nicotine mixes it may use.

    It was suggested here that the PV should stand on its own merits and this sentiment was decryed somewhat. The basic idea being that vaping is 'a healthier alternative'. Yet even this ties the PV to tobacco. It may be a healthier alternative, just as drinking low alcohol beer may be a healthier alternative to drinking methylated spirit. Yet LA beer is not presented in that way is it?

    So to summarize, there is a case to be made for the PV to be put into it's own category, including them within tobacco regulation would (again IMHO) not be appropriate.

    I hope I have answered your questions. Just my 2ps worth (more like 10p west - I know, I waffle on a bit - well just a tad!)

    be well

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    Thank you so much for your thoughtful, interesting, and informative response.

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    yw jamie

    It is worth reading this interview (A Global Prison?) with Dr Kamal Chaouachi and Chris Snowdon (Author Velvet Glove Iron Fist) -> velvetgloveironfist.com/kamal_chaouachi_interview.php

    Although Dr Chaouachi conducts research on the Hookah, it clearly demonstrates another set of reasons why PVs should avoid getting labeled as a tobacco product.

    Note that Hookahs mainly heat tobacco.
    (Link courtesy of Colin at Freedom2Choose.info)
    Last edited by Timtam; 06-07-2010 at 08:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by westcoast2 View Post
    It is worth reading this interview (A Global Prison?) with Dr Kamal Chaouachi and Chris Snowdon (Author Velvet Glove Iron Fist) -> velvetgloveironfist.com/kamal_chaouachi_interview.php

    Although Dr Chaouachi conducts research on the Hookah, it clearly demonstrates another set of reasons why PVs should avoid getting labeled as a tobacco product.
    Thank you for that:
    A Global Prison? Anti-smoking and hookah bans

    There were two hookah bars near my home driven out of business by our no-exemption smoking ban, so the article was interesting for that also.

  9. #29
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    Here in Queensland, Australia, e-ciggs have been branded a method of "regulated poison" as per the nicotine content. Thus resulting in an outright ban on use as well as even posession. So now I am a criminal.


    Quote Originally Posted by KDMickey View Post
    Well, they can't ban tobacco, they can only ban smoking it. No one will try to tell you you cannot chew tobacco on an airplane or in a theatre. So if personal vaporizers are regulated as tobacco, I don't think it would have a major impact except that it would avoid the "drug" regulations.

    Really, given our options at the moment, being classified as a tobacco product would be a best-case scenario.

  10. #30
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    Default Make the Calls!!!!

    And Waxman and Lautenberg too! We need to express our objection to any attempt to ban ecigs and explain that we as smokers would prefer to take our chances with nic than with nic combined with smoke, tar, and carcinogens.

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