Now is the Time To Act! I am Serious! **updated**

[Sun Vaporer]

Sorry, no they don't. Their responsibility is to make sure that they adhere to all applicable laws. There is no legal requirement for "ensure"-ance, as you put it. Nor is there a moral requirement when the legal requiremement would outstrip the entrepreneurial entity to exceed its capacity for investment. What good is it gain "assurance" if the result is that you would then be out of business? And once they fail, they would lose legal standing as well.

Fatman--that is not the standard in products liablity--the Standard is to adheare to all applicable laws AND adhere to a duty of care to disclose all and any information that would be deemed to be dangerous to the consumer. That means a duty to warn. To say that a producer or manufacture or Suppier has no duty to disclose that their product is illegal is just not the law------------Sun

[Jayhawks]

Outwest,
You said "Why oh why hasnt the news mentioned this?" Thats be because the liberal mainstream media dont want you to know!!!

ARGH!! Dr. Coburn has been having town hall meetings all across the state for a few days now (and some were within 45 min drive from my house!) Why oh why hasnt the news mentioned this? *banging head against wall*
.: United States Senator Tom Coburn :: Press Room :.

[LuckyCharm]

letters sent certified mail...

Good idea -- thanks. I had already emailed my two senators and my representative, with no replies yet. Now I see that Patty Murray is on the committee. Will have to follow up with certified letters to all, now.... Thanks again for the heads-up!

~~Cheryl

[Terraphon]

Yes, we are pulling all claims regarding health from all sites of people in the ECA. Now To squash Terraphon here.. Every supplier "Forum Member who buys in bulk"? You really need to know what you are talking about before you talk. Everyone in the association has to have a Legit business...That means Tax ID Numbers etc the works... we are not just sitting here with our thumbs in our rears.. Things are happening, we are talking to big people and trying to get everyones voices heard as much as possible. And yes All of you consumers will be heard. In due time. As a matter of fact.. we NEED you guys.. we have only just ASKED for your help.. None of this is a scare tactic or some crazy scheme.. We just asked you guys to voice yourselves to everyone you can...

Jason

First off, I'm not the one that made the comment about suppliers being forum members who buy in bulk. I will, however, say that this IS the case in SOME situations.

Second, don't even DREAM of trying to come at me like I'm an undereducated fleeb with no concept of business. You'll find quite the opposite to be true and I promise you that attitude will not endear your cause to anyone.

Now you say that every member of this super secret "association" has to have a "legitimate business" with business licenses, tax ID's etc...That means what, exactly? I can start a business and call it "Rob's shoe mashing" where I get drunk, sit on my driveway and smack old high-tops with a hammer while I drool on myself and I can get a business license and Tax ID for that, too...You're not impressing me by telling me that every member of a new business association has to operate within the boundaries of the law.

Once again, you're putting rifles in our hands, pointing to the line and telling us to go fight but you're not even bothering to tell us why we're fighting or what we're fighting for. At this point, with all of the secrecy and "we'll tell you later" bullsh.t (not to mention a comment made about having someone "higher up in the organization" answer a question) the whole thing WREAKS of shady business and a group of people scrambling to get help to do something they should have done on DAY 1 (and were advised to do) but couldn't be arsed to.

I am not a supplier and have no dog in this fight, except a desire for easy access to the supplies I need to vape. The suppliers do not, in fact, have the responsibiity here. The manufactureres do. When Wyeth comes out with a new drug, Walgreens does not petition the FDA for approval to sell it, Wyeth does and Walgreens needs to adhere to certain rules set up by the FDA and the various states to allow them to sell the product. I have some experience with the approval process for medical devices and I assure you that your perspective is mistaken. The suppliers need to rally *political* pressure. They then need to engage either a domestic or oversea manufacturer to commit to the costs of approval in exchange for which they will commit to buying some minimum amount or to pay a license fee when approved, perhaps in advance - that's their skin in the game and it will amount to a great deal of money on their part. But the manufacturer has to take the lead with *regulatory* action rather than *political*.

I appreciate your perspective, but please understand that it is based on flawed assumptions. For now the suppliers have the same goals as the consumer. That will change when they need to start writing checks and protecting their investments. But as of now, they are also consumers purchasing at wholesale rates, nothing more.

My statements and perspectives aren't based on flawed assumptions, at all...The statements I make now, just as the statements I made a couple of months ago, hold true.

Yes...Only the manufacturer of a chemical / drug / substance can submit for regulatory approval.

Get it?

Maybe?

No?

I'll tell you what...I'll tell you what I mean when the "association" *BUHM-BUHM-BUUUUUUUUHM* tells us what they're up to.

I am looking forward to reviewing the statement to be issued today by the ECA. If you post it in its own thread please provide a link to it from this one. Thank you for listening...

I, too, am looking forward to reviewing it. I'll be at work all day with no ability to check the forum but I'll be on this as soon as I get home.

I'm interested in seeing where the sh.t storm lands.

[fatman]

Fatman--that is not the standard in products liablity--the Standard is to adheare to all applicable laws AND adhere to a duty of care to disclose all and any information that would be deemed to be dangerous to the consumer. That means a duty to warn. To say that a producer or manufacture or Suppier has no duty to disclose that their product is illegal is just not the law------------Sun

The question was not about disclosure nor was it about liability. The question was whether or not JC had done all it could to "ensure" FDA approval. The truth is that they have no standing to do so nor do any of the US suppliers - they are too small and could not prove that they could adhere to the safety protocols once they were introduced. This isn't food, it is a drug and the regulatory costs are enormous. And let's not forget that the "device" refers to the hardware and the liquid - the hypothetical example of JC is murky at best since they only provide one artifact of the delivery medium.

The argumemnt being made here is that the suppliers have not done enough to get FDA approval. I am only addressing that point. Whether JC would win a liability case is another matter and not anything I have experience with. But I do have experience with medical devices and the costs and regulatory burden imposed by the FDA and can state categorically that no US supplier has the means or requirement to address it. In the case of eventual approval by the FDA as a delivery device, JC will almpost certainly not be able to live up to the burden of manufacturing unles they are a far larger company than I beleive that they are.

[fatman]

Yes...Only the manufacturer of a chemical / drug / substance can submit for regulatory approval.

Get it?

Maybe?

No?

Frankly I don't understand your point, but I will agree that the suppliers made a key tactical mistake in mixing the call to action with a tease on an announcement. They should have been separated.

[Sun Vaporer]

The question was not about disclosure nor was it about liability. The question was whether or not JC had done all it could to "ensure" FDA approval. The truth is that they have no standing to do so nor do any of the US suppliers - they are too small and could not prove that they could adhere to the safety protocols once they were introduced. This isn't food, it is a drug and the regulatory costs are enormous. And let's not forget that the "device" refers to the hardware and the liquid - the hypothetical example of JC is murky at best since they only provide one artifact of the delivery medium.

The argumemnt being made here is that the suppliers have not done enough to get FDA approval. I am only addressing that point. Whether JC would win a liability case is another matter and not anything I have experience with. But I do have experience with medical devices and the costs and regulatory burden imposed by the FDA and can state categorically that no US supplier has the means or requirement to address it. In the case of eventual approval by the FDA as a delivery device, JC will almpost certainly not be able to live up to the burden of manufacturing unles they are a far larger company than I beleive that they are.

Fatman--it you want to discuss JC--they are a manufacture and do have standing unlike counsumers. JC holds themself out as a manufacture and did in fact have the right to make application to the FDA for approval and do the applicable requisite studies. The fact that they are not big enough or lack the funding is irrelevent--so you really are aruguing both sides against the middle.

The bottom line here--and I have said this repeatedly for the last 3 months--the manufactures are the only ones who had the requisite standing to file the requiste applications with the FDA and infuse capital into the necessary saftey studies that are required. We as consumers can not file an application. So the manufacturers either blew it or in the alternative simple do not care as there is plenty of consumers right in China. For us to try to "save the day" now really has put us in the worst possible position that we, as consumers could be place in.

We will try to "save the day"--of course. Is it right that we, as counsumers are in this position---NO---------Sun

[Terraphon]

*whistlewhistlewhistle*

[Idahojo]

I believe I've read this entire thread. What I would like to know is where are the suppliers? Why have so very few posted their opinions and comments on this thread?

[Terraphon]

That's a damned good question, Joe.

And now, I'll defer to the suppliers for an answer.

Oh, wait................