Slightly confused about CASAA

[Darmeen]

Just had a thought, and this seemed like the right thread to bring it up.

Has any organization approached the ACLU about what the FDA is doing? To me, this seems like a situation that is right up their alley.

If the ACLU were to side with safer alternatives to using traditional tobacco products, I would think that would go a LONG way to keep the FDA from butchering the e-cig into some ineffectual device that would pretty much force most of us back onto analogs.

[yvilla]

Darmeen, as much as I've been trying over the past year or so to brainstorm arguments that would bring the choice to use ecigs within the purview of doctrines such as equal protection and substantive due process, and as much as I would love it if we ecig consumers could hope to get some legal help from major organzations like the ACLU, I really don't think it's likely that we could count on that.

Realistically, I tend to think most wouldn't regard our access to ecigs as a constitutional rights or civil liberties issue. While the ACLU does support the concept of harm reduction in the context of its drug law reform work (eg, supporting needle exchange programs), when you take a look at the major issue areas it works in, such as capital punishment, racial justice, human rights, reproductive freedom, etc, it doesn't seem like our issue would fit within it's focus areas. (Key Issues | American Civil Liberties Union).

I think we need to work hard to build up and strengthen our own advocacy organizations like CASAA (and RtV and ECA), so that we can engage in and win the public awareness, educational, legislative and legal battles we are faced with.

[Mac]

Just had a thought, and this seemed like the right thread to bring it up.

Has any organization approached the ACLU about what the FDA is doing? To me, this seems like a situation that is right up their alley.

If the ACLU were to side with safer alternatives to using traditional tobacco products, I would think that would go a LONG way to keep the FDA from butchering the e-cig into some ineffectual device that would pretty much force most of us back onto analogs.

I am not an organization, but yes I called and emailed them several months ago. My email was not responded to and the representative I spoke to had no idea what I was talking about. He sounded bored and uninterested. He told me in no uncertain terms that the organization was not interested in this issue at this time but that I might try again if the feds win in court.

No help for us from them I am afraid.

[BigJimW]

Like it says--An Alernative.


Sun

Of course you do know that the anti smoker zealots and Nazi stormtroopers like Banzhaf will be blind to the middle road, don't ya? These behavior modification groups don't want to hear of any "alternatives". To them, it's a clear cut case of "Quit" or "Die". Kinda like what Hitler did to the Jews. I only hope you're ready for them, because as many before you found out, these Nazi bastards can get quite ugly.

Even though I am not on the CASSA board, you can rest assured I will do whatever it takes to make them see the middle road.

Vape strong is all I have to say.

[Webby]

Even though I am not on the CASSA board, you can rest assured I will do whatever it takes to make them see the middle road.

Vape strong is all I have to say.

Big Jim,

You're as much CASAA as anyone -

Webby

[markarich159]

Just curious, and by no means am I being disrespectful or facetious, but, being that "harm reduction" is CASAA's ultimate aim; what is CASAA's view on harm reduction strategies for other "prohibited" pharamaceuticals. Do you intend to liaise with other harm reduction groups such as LEAP, drugpolicy.org, DRCNet, ssdp.org etc... I bring this up as I see the current "drug war" and US led drug prohibition as massive, wasteful policy failures.

[Mac]

Just curious, and by no means am I being disrespectful or facetious, but, being that "harm reduction" is CASAA's ultimate aim; what is CASAA's view on harm reduction strategies for other "prohibited" pharamaceuticals. Do you intend to liaise with other harm reduction groups such as LEAP, drugpolicy.org, DRCNet, ssdp.org etc... I bring this up as I see the current "drug war" and US led drug prohibition as massive, wasteful policy failures.

I happen to agree with you here. The drug war is a money machine and creates alot of criminals. Our system only works to increase law enforcement budgets. It sends otherwise non violent offenders off to a thug academy where they are forced to join gangs and begin a real life of crtime. But to do what you are suggesting would be a huge mistake. We are already outnumbered and outfinanced 10-1. Start throwing A bid for legal ...... into the mix and CASAA will have all the mass apeal of a leper colony. They are seperate issues and need to remain as such, if we are to have even a chance of victory.

[Mordred]

I happen to agree with you here. The drug war is a money machine and creates alot of criminals. Our system only works to increase law enforcement budgets. It sends otherwise non violent offenders off to a thug academy where they are forced to join gangs and begin a real life of crtime. But to do what you are suggesting would be a huge mistake. We are already outnumbered and outfinanced 10-1. Start throwing A bid for legal ...... into the mix and CASAA will have all the mass apeal of a leper colony. They are seperate issues and need to remain as such, if we are to have even a chance of victory.

This.

In my line of work, I am confronted on a daily basis with drugs and I think I have a damn good idea of what's wrong with the system.

I mean, nobody's debating that mainlining H is bad for you and the same goes for most drugs. But the reason that most people end up in jail is simple: the law says they're criminals. Is that dude who never got through school and found himself hopeless on the street doing crack or whatever a bad person? No. But because the law says his habit is illegal, he has to pay ten times the real price for his fix and that means that he will have to either sell or steal to get it. Simple as that.

The ONLY way out of this is legalizing. At a guess, 70% of the inmates in our jails are drug users who would not be in jail if their drug was legally available.

I see judges asking them: "Why haven't you got a job? Why haven't you got a stable address? Have you done detox? How can we release you without those?". But that's completely backwards. These people need to be able to stabilize their habit before they can look into getting a job, a home and, ultimately, treatment. Forcing the addicts to chase their next fix 24/7 is what really destroys their lives. If they could just get it from a cornershop like smokers get their cigarettes, they'd have the time and opportunity to sort out the mess.

Sorry for derailing the thread, but I had to get that off my chest.

As for Webby's comments, I agree that some sort of regulation will have to be put into place. Currently, we know very little about where our e-liquid comes from and what it actually contains. In THEORY, the e-cigarette is perfectly safe. In practice, however, quality control is not the forte of the Chinese industry (no offense), so I'm all for the FDA testing of e-liquid.

Finally, the issue of "supporting big tobacco" was brought up. This line of reasoning is completely counter-productive. First of all, PM, BAT and Reynolds are not our enemies. They have already expanded into harm-reduction alternatives, with Reynolds especially pushing hard into the snus market (the swedish version of their snus is actually pretty decent) and PM is following suit. I see the fact that these companies are exploring these markets as a good thing. They have the means to produce high-quality products and to market them successfully, meaning more people will gain access to alternatives to smoking. Ultimately, these companies don't really care whether they sell us the tobacco as cigarettes, snus or just extract the nicotine from it for e-liquid, as long as they make a profit. If there is a demand for these products, they will make them. Now, they may initially want to slow down the process, so that they can secure a share of the market, but they will go there.

[markarich159]

The ONLY way out of this is legalizing. At a guess, 70% of the inmates in our jails are drug users who would not be in jail if their drug was legally available.

I see judges asking them: "Why haven't you got a job? Why haven't you got a stable address? Have you done detox? How can we release you without those?". But that's completely backwards. These people need to be able to stabilize their habit before they can look into getting a job, a home and, ultimately, treatment. Forcing the addicts to chase their next fix 24/7 is what really destroys their lives. If they could just get it from a cornershop like smokers get their cigarettes, they'd have the time and opportunity to sort out the mess.

Sorry for derailing the thread, but I had to get that off my chest.

Sorry for continuing the derail, but Mordred, you hit the nail on the head. That's why the Swiss ...... program is such a resounding success. Instead of jailing ...... addicts , they give them clean pharmaceutical ...... for free. Crime has dropped ENORMOUSLY. HIV/Hepatitis transmission has dropped. But the real success story is the addicts themselves. For the first time,for some of them in years, they are able to gain stable employment, housing, education, etc... and become contributing members of society; also a staggering 20%(4 times the percentage in prohibition countries) have actually become completely sober because of the increase in their life opportunities the program has given them. The pilot program was SO successful, the citizens of Switzerland voted to make the program permanent by referendum. This is pretty much how it was prior the 1914 and the Harrison Narcotic Act in the USA. Ok, back to our regularly scheduled thread. Sorry again.

[Territoo]

Having once worked in a maxiumum security prison, I've seen a lot of prisoners with drug related offences, although I'd have to say that most of what I dealt with weren't those who were simply users caught burglarizing to be able to afford their next fix. Those offenders were in lower security facilities, or perhaps their sentences were short enough they never made it out of the county prison before they were paroled. I'm not sure I agree w/ the 70% figure, but the prison system is overcrowded and there's a lot of drug (and alcohol) related offenses. Most of what I dealt with are the dealers and those whose drug related crimes were more violent: aggravated assault, murder, DUI related crimes. I think the sad part is that the 70% figure is too high because of the sexual and child molestation crimes. Although drugs/alcohol may have been a factor in these crimes, that wasn't the big issue.