Nicotine calculation and Juice mixer

[toekuttr]

OK, I was a little confused when you wrote this Mihai, and this is why I questioned whether we were reading the same Ruyan report:

According to this, if you use 24mg/ml e-liquid, you will inhale in 10 drags 2.4 mg of nicotine, which is about what you get from a normal cigarette.

What I read on the report was this from Ruyan:

then, assuming the nicotine was equally concentrated across all
puffs, and assuming all breaths are lung inhalations, 1.5 mg of liquid went into the
average puff, providing an estimated 1.5 * 16ug nicotine per puff = 24 micrograms of
nicotine,. Fifteen puffs would thus supply 360 ug or 0.36 mg of nicotine, that is one fifth
of the amount from one cigarette. And 15 shallow puffs would only supply 0.12 mg of
nicotine. Volume and weight calculations thus give differing values. Pharmacokinetic
testing will show whether smokers obtain sufficient nicotine from the e-cigarette.

These are the values I was referring to on pg 10 of that report which are much lower than the example you stated. Of course these values are based on 16 mg/ml fluid so are fractionally lower than what someone using 24 mg/ml fluid. These tests indicate that smoking an e-cig would take 5x the numbers of full and deep puffs to replicate an actual tobacco cigarette. However it does appear that this might be closer to what an ultra-light smoker (maybe also using secondary filters) is accustomed to.

Thats why I think a much higher nic content is desirable for many of the heavier smokers trying to switch over e-smoking. I guess I fall into that category too, as I generally consume about 30 RYO FF smokes in a day (....that is I did before starting using Snus to cut back). I just never felt much nicotine when e-smoking and it looks it's because theres not much to be had in the available juices.

[Mihai]

no. they just lie.

I will try again to break it down

1 cart = 1.3 ml
1 cart = 13 cig

ergo

1 cig = 0.1 ml

if

1 cig 10 puffs or 1cig 15 puffs

assuming

1cig gives you 2.4 mg (which is a lot, you get less I'm sure but let's go with that)

so

nic per puff in smoke 0.24 mg or @ 15 puffs 0.16 mg

for vapors:
0.1ml 10 puffs or 0.1ml 15 puffs

assuming strong e-liq 0.1ml has 2.4 mg nic

so

nic per puff in vapor 0.24 or @15 puffs 0.16 mg


Where ruyan lies:

liquid per puff 1.5 mg = 0.0015 ml

in reality

liquid per puff
0.1ml / 10 = 0.01 ml -> 6.7 times more

0.1ml/15 = 0.007 ml -> 4.4 times more

If what ruyan said was right

e-pen cart would equal 1.3 ml / 0.0015 ml = 867 puffs = 4+ packs

To resume it:
they say 1 puff is just 1.5 mg of liquid. this is underestimated by 7 times (or 4.4 times in the best case scenario)
If they were right one e-pen cart will give you the same number of puffs as more than 4 packs of cigarettes.

if the puff is deep or shallow it doesn't matter because the same can be said about a puff from a cigarette. If you take 10 similar puffs from a cigarette or from a e-cigarette there is no difference. There is the same amount of nicotine in every puff. If you don't exhale for, say, 10 sec you can assume the absorbtion rate will be 100% in both cases. If you don't inhale you can assume the absorbtion rate is say 10% in _both_ cases.

The just lie or the missed a 0 when they transformed from mg to ml. All their calculations are wrong by a factor of 10.

[SmokeyJoe]

I don't mind at all. I actually wish to see as much things related to this going around freely.
Before registering in this forum I wanted to make a blog/forum only about diy ecigs, but as I haven't seen here any censorship yet about this subject I see no point doing it anymore.
It's sad that the other good forums (de, nl, au) don't allow discussion about this stuff... what's the point in censoring, for example, a link to bickford's site, what do they think is in brand carts, holy water??

Yup, there's no censorship here, although perhaps I should put a disclaimer here about self-responsibility and attempting these operations at one's own risk etc etc?

Why on earth do the other forums censor this info? It is a perfectly legitimate topic of interest for e-smokers, surely?

In fact, I thought it may be an idea to have a diy-liquids sub-forum under tips and tricks. What do you think?

It's great to have you on board Mihai, it's people like you that make this forum such a superb resource.

Take care,

SJ

[Mihai]

Thanks SmokeyJoe

excellent disclaimer!

Yes, I belive that we could be actually safer if we talk about these - we have the chance to warn people about the dangers of what they are doing. Exactly because the bottles and carts of e-liq look so ordinary, with no warnings, people might think they are harmless and might try to cook themselves without any precautions.
We can also have the chance of learning from other's mistakes

[SmokeyJoe]

Thanks SmokeyJoe

excellent disclaimer!

Yes, I belive that we could be actually safer if we talk about these - we have the chance to warn people about the dangers of what they are doing. Exactly because the bottles and carts of e-liq look so ordinary, with no warnings, people might think they are harmless and might try to cook themselves without any precautions.
We can also have the chance of learning from other's mistakes

Thanks Mihai,

I remember being absolutely horrified sitting in front of my PC reading Wikipedia on nicotine with my little bottle of e-liquid beside me, suddenly
realizing there was enough to kill me four times over!

To think that in the UK you can only buy paracetamol in packets of 16 because of the suicidal-overdose potential!!

I hope the new subforum is a good idea too, keep the diy threads in one place with the disclaimer at the top.

Again, I am really surprised that other forums ban the discussion of home-made e-liquids.

If you have anything that you think should be added to the disclaimer, please let me know.

Great to have you on board.

[toekuttr]

Mihai claims:

1cig gives you 2.4 mg (which is a lot, you get less I'm sure but let's go with that)

2.4 mg per smoke eh? Wow! Thats double what Newports deliver (1.1 mg), jeez, I'd think I'd be dead by now taking dozens of hits at a sitting. Hmm, now thats a headscratcher.....I wonder why they initially claimed 1/2 per e-cig, then revised it to 1/5 and the whole time it appears it actually double! Thanks again for the info Mihai.

[toekuttr]

BTW, great idea separating this thread admin, I think this is a very interesting topic.

[jigtg]

Originally Posted by Mihai

- I think you gain nothing by mixing the filtered juice with propylene and then evaporate water.

You gain safety.

[TropicalBob]

You want to know how much nicotine is in each puff, read the Health New Zealand lab tests by Dr. Murray Laugesen. One-half to one-fifth of that in a regular cigarette, take your choice. Not the same as a real cig at all. In my eight months of personal use of 24mg liquid in every flavor ... the nicotine hit is not even close. I understand Toekutrr's frustration. I cannot depend on e-smoking for nicotine, so use snus and Stonewall at all times, in addition to e-smoking. And, yes, I inhale the vapor.

[TropicalBob]

Sorry not to have back-read the thread. We've been around this bush. You don't believe the report; I believe the report. Ok.

But from my own experience, I should be flat on the floor with nicotine overdose since I am almost never without an e-cig. I'm not flat, however. In fact, the opposite. I'm jittery for nicotine most of the time. If e-smoking equalled cigarette smoking, I think my urges would be gone. Maybe not, though, since all ex-smokers miss other things about cigarette smoking.