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Thread: Vinegar?

  1. #561
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    I will stick with the senseless people or should i say the majority of the industry including vendors. I dont see where most people find 5% to be more then flavorful.All i see is you think that.

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    str8V8ping I'm neither here nor there in this debate, but do you use FA tobaccos? What percentages do you like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus Vap View Post
    str8V8ping I'm neither here nor there in this debate, but do you use FA tobaccos? What percentages do you like?
    I dont use FA tobacco but id say thats about the few times when it calls for under 5%

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    Do you use anything that's not a desert vape? Not trolling I promise I just wonder if it explains why you prefer higher percentages.

    Like I said, this isn't part of the above debate, just like to feel out the DIYers whose opinions I respect and stalk on a regular basis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyrus Vap View Post
    Do you use anything that's not a desert vape? Not trolling I promise I just wonder if it explains why you prefer higher percentages.

    Like I said, this isn't part of the above debate, just like to feel out the DIYers whose opinions I respect and stalk on a regular basis
    I do fruits ,drinks, bakery.I very rarely do menthol or tobaccos but i have done a couple in the past. The most is by far bakery juices though. I think thats about every type .
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    I have tried Flavor West, Perfumer's Apprentice, FlavourArt, LorAnn and some other flavorings, and I don't think any one is 5 times more diluted than another. Maybe a little stronger or weaker, in some cases maybe as much as 2:1, but not 5:1. The main reason is because in reality most commercial flavorings come from the same wholesale labs. The other reason is a sort of standard normalization in the professional use of these mixtures for food use. The oil or alcohol extracts are a different story, as are some grocery store flavorings intended for lay kitchen use. But these are not our concern

    There's another important aspect to blending flavors. FlavourArt has been selling selective inhibitors of specific taste receptors for some time. For instance their "Bitter wizard", "Magic Mask" or "Vape Wizard", a lot like what's being mentioned above. The reason these do what they do is because of an interaction between flavoring molecules. Taste is not the arithmetic sum of the ingredients.

    You can, for example, achieve a given taste with 4% of a sweet vanillaey blend, add something else, say a specific banana, and suddenly find that the previous flavor sensation has been cut significantly, call it in half. It's more common than people realize. Now to bring the sweet vanilla notes back up, you have to double the original compounds, and you're suddenly at 10%, for no good reason. That's what I mean by "well-designed", that you aim for good flavor and you learn how to avoid combinations that cancel out. If the attitude is "who cares, 25% is fine" you don't even have any reason to do it smarter. Personally, I always try to keep the total flavoring percentage below 5-6%, 20 drops, it's a reasonable discipline-inducing level. Sloppy design results in piling on chemicals and exposing the human physiology to more potential hazard without any benefit.

    In 10 ml of base, what 5% (half a milliliter) means is about 16 drops of a PG-based flavoring, as the drops are much smaller than water's typical 0.050 ml. That's not an insignificant amount. In some cases you can in fact do it with half that concentration. Sometimes you might use 20 drops, not a mortal sin, and with some weak ones you might wince and go a little higher. But if you need to use over 80 drops of a full strength flavoring, I mean LOOK at what 2.5 ml out of 10 is, if you quit smoking to be healthier and a quarter of what you vape is an industrial wonderland, then 1) you are not doing a good job as a flavorist, and 2) if one of these days you look back from a hospital bed, you'll surely ask yourself why on earth you really needed to do that.
    Last edited by Fernand; 03-03-2012 at 01:25 AM.

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    WHy are you the only one in the entire industry who knows this and where is researching saying that flavorings are dangerous at allTo my knowledge there is nothing posted saying is good or bad. I guess i will personally just stick to being a sloppy mixer since if i vape vendors juice it would be the same sloppy mix. Theres a entire forum of people that are gonna end up in the hospital because of vaping that means . Actually multiple forums of people. Hey if it works out for you i guess that all that matters but i personally am just gonna stick to the way everyones been mixing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Str8V8ping View Post
    WHy are you the only one in the entire industry who knows this and where is researching saying that flavorings are dangerous at allTo my knowledge there is nothing posted saying is good or bad. I guess i will personally just stick to being a sloppy mixer since if i vape vendors juice it would be the same sloppy mix. Theres a entire forum of people that are gonna end up in the hospital because of vaping that means . Actually multiple forums of people. Hey if it works out for you i guess that all that matters but i personally am just gonna stick to the way everyones been mixing.
    str8t, I think you just validated Fernand point. There is no research on the safety of flavors when used in a e-liquid. What Fernand is saying, if down the road 5, 10, 15 years research or time has shown that some of these flavor molecules are harmful when inhalled, he has limited exposure.
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    Thanks, AzPlumber. Limiting exposure/risk. That's exactly the issue. There has been almost no testing, because nobody expected these flavorings to be inhaled. I'm not out to make you unhappy, but, str8t, you are mistaken when you say "where is researching saying that flavorings are dangerous at all". Here is what Centers For Disease Control says:

    ... the flavorings industry has estimated that over a thousand flavoring ingredients have the potential to be respiratory hazards

    The reason I'm taking the time with this, is because I believe that if I can get even a few people to be more cautious about all flavoring, it might make a life and death difference in the long run. I apologize for doing this here, it got a little off-topic.

    One of the first serious inhalation toxicology test series was performed by NIOSH with the diketones that are commonly used to give a rich "buttery" flavor in foods (and in vaping where they're the vanillaey custardy mainstay). The two they tested were acetylpropionyl and diacetyl. Testing of a third, acetoin, is being finished up as we speak.

    They were tested (after the fact) because workers who mixed buttered popcorn, where these flavorings are used, were, without immediate symptoms, developing irreversible lung damage.

    Now the interesting detail. Below 100 ppm, there was no detectable damage. So we have a very steep concentration-response curve. It's reasonable to expect that other flavoring type compounds that have not been tested yet will turn out in time to have some toxicity, as in the industry statement above about "over a thousand" of potentially toxic flavorings, and some of us may be affected.

    To us, as vapers, this is a potential iceberg of which we are just noticing the tip, a far greater risk than Glycerin, Propylene Glycol or Nicotine (all 3 of which have at least had some inhalation testing).

    If/when toxicity emerges for specific flavoring molecules, the concentration of the flavorings we've been vaping will likely be the main determinant of the degree of damage we have suffered. That can be to our advantage.

    AzPlumber is exactly right, it's a question of limiting exposure, and risk. And if around 5 % flavoring is adequate for flavorful vaping, and in my experience it is (and I like desert type vapes), why push your luck with 25%? Just because so many people are making and selling extreme-flavored juices, just as many people are doing other high-risk things?

    So what does it take to reduce the risk? Just one thing: recognize that flavoring is not a guaranteed free lunch. There have already been some unpleasant surprises. Just be a little wary and use the least amount that's needed.
    Last edited by Fernand; 03-07-2012 at 04:37 PM.
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    I agree Fernand, and would add that the general excepted mentality seems to be instant gratification...and not just in vaping. It's the reason many of us smoked in the first place, damn the consequences.

    I enjoy a flavorless vape...and I enjoy a bit of flavor as well, but I guess I've never understood the quest to replicate the flavors of specific foods like rice krispy treats. Well, unless you're diabetic or something, then I guess I get it. If I want a rice krispy treat I'll eat one. Gooey Butter cake...easy to make (just made my first) and took care of that craving for a very long time As long as what I'm vaping tastes good (a bit of agreeable flavoring) I'm good to go.

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