Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[DVap]

The assumption that the PG and the dissolved nic just go their separate ways once in the bloodstream might be wrong. But it is more likely that some of the nic is being 'lost' before that stage.

Some of the nicotine may well be getting lost, but to assume that nicotine and pg go their separate ways in the bloodstream is probably reasonably sound. It's a solvent/solute system. Just as nicotine is dissolved/carried by PG in liquid, once in the bloodstream, Blood(water) becomes the solvent and PG/nicotine become very low concentration solutes. PG is carried by the solvent (blood) throughout the body and metabolized while nicotine is carried throughout the body but is quickly removed from the solvent/solute system by the brain.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the comment?

[kinabaloo]

Some of the nicotine may well be getting lost, but to assume that nicotine and pg go their separate ways in the bloodstream is probably reasonably sound. It's a solvent/solute system. Just as nicotine is dissolved/carried by PG in liquid, once in the bloodstream, Blood(water) becomes the solvent and PG/nicotine become very low concentration solutes. PG is carried by the solvent (blood) throughout the body and metabolized while nicotine is carried throughout the body but is quickly removed from the solvent/solute system by the brain.

Maybe I'm missing the point of the comment?

Just that: this is what we expect happens but maybe it doesn't. Any weak binding would probably not hold in the blood, so maybe glycerols prevent blood brain transfer, or take up the binding sites or something. I know, these are all a bit ridiculous, but there just might be something ... As I said though, the loss almost certainly occurs before entry into the bloodstream - most likely at vaporisation time. Which is why it is good that you will be looking into that.

[DVap]

Just that: this is what we expect happens but maybe it doesn't. Any weak binding would probably not hold in the blood, so maybe glycerols prevent blood brain transfer, or take up the binding sites or something. I know, these are all a bit ridiculous, but there just might be something ... As I said though, the loss almost certainly occurs before entry into the bloodstream - most likely at vaporisation time. Which is why it is good that you will be looking into that.

Glycerol isn't going to block nicotine from the nicotinic acetylchlorine receptors, if it did, folks could take glycerin instead of poisoning themselves with Chantix. Any attraction of nicotine to PG or VG, likely facilitated by the -OH groups is going to be trivialized by a much more powerful and higher concentration -OH group containing compound, the water in our blood.

I think you're on the mark in wanting to look at the vaporization. I'm not really actively working on it yet, but it's on my to do list.

[Tom09]

More good test results, this time from eSmoke.

Good to read that one more supplier got proactive, doing his best to get his liquid tested and quality controlled. It’s only the responsible ones, those who are responding to and acting on possibly emerging quality and safety threats, that I could trust my health on. Many do well, but just imagine some hypothetical company would have been called out for selling contaminated liquid (maybe with 1% DEG) and did not react on this very issue. That’s close to the most irresponsible one could get.

Again, DVap, thanks for making the methods of a simple quality measure known and available for a wide audience. Good to see that various manufacturers and suppliers passed this basic test. Even better to learn about the encouraging and proactive example presented here.

[kinabaloo]

Glycerol isn't going to block nicotine from the nicotinic acetylchlorine receptors, if it did, folks could take glycerin instead of poisoning themselves with Chantix. Any attraction of nicotine to PG or VG, likely facilitated by the -OH groups is going to be trivialized by a much more powerful and higher concentration -OH group containing compound, the water in our blood.

I think you're on the mark in wanting to look at the vaporization. I'm not really actively working on it yet, but it's on my to do list.

Of course it's unlikely, but wortha thought.

One bit of logic that doesnt translate to commercialism though is that Chanrix would not be marketed if VG worked as well or better (no money in it).

My guess is that VG wouldnt get into the brain, so it would be in the blood that it does something (long shot of course).

[DVap]

Good to read that one more supplier got proactive, doing his best to get his liquid tested and quality controlled. It’s only the responsible ones, those who are responding to and acting on possibly emerging quality and safety threats, that I could trust my health on. Many do well, but just imagine some hypothetical company would have been called out for selling contaminated liquid (maybe with 1% DEG) and did not react on this very issue. That’s close to the most irresponsible one could get.

Again, DVap, thanks for making the methods of a simple quality measure known and available for a wide audience. Good to see that various manufacturers and suppliers passed this basic test. Even better to learn about the encouraging and proactive example presented here.

Tom,

Since the vast majority of e-liquid suppliers don't handle pure nicotine, and either buy from China and resell or have secured a domestic supplier of nicotine concentrates, this level of testing is prohibitively expensive for some of them. Dekang, for instance, in China moves a lot of liquid internationally, and while they are a technologically advanced company, it's safe to say that "Made in China" and "Inhale it into my body" are two phrases that don't exactly make most of us bristle with confidence given some of the shenanigans we've all heard/read about recently involving Chinese exports.

Furthermore, for each supplier to locate and contract with a laboratory for this testing, it would require each supplier to evaluate the quality of the laboratory they're dealing with. The laboratory industry encompasses a vast range of technology, experience, expertise, and competence. To the untrained eye, a shoddy fly-by-night laboratory appears quite similar to a top-flight operation. So the suppliers are left to make an evaluation of the quality of testing they are receiving, likely without the knowledge required to make an informed evaluation of the laboratory they are dealing with.

This leads me to believe that there's room for a bulk supplier of materials such as PG, VG, and nicotine concentrates to have this rigorous testing done for the suppliers who could then purchase tested/certified lots of materials from that bulk supplier.

Of course, the FDA would prefer that this all go away, and is likely scheming to either torpedo the whole e-smoking industry or at least to make a power-grab such that they could put the industry under the thumb of whichever pharma or tobacco company that does the best job of greasing the most pockets in Washington.

Ultimately, I fear that the FDA is going to legislate our small-suppliers out of business using, in part, the excuse that "You need to be able trust the purity of your e-liquid, and who can you trust if you can't trust the government?" While all the time even a "dirty" e-liquid is likely a few orders of magnitude safer for us than the "safest" tobacco cigarette.

Ok, now I'm getting mad. I'd better stop for now.

[kinabaloo]

Tom,

Since the vast majority of e-liquid suppliers don't handle pure nicotine, and either buy from China and resell or have secured a domestic supplier of nicotine concentrates, this level of testing is prohibitively expensive for some of them. Dekang, for instance, in China moves a lot of liquid internationally, and while they are a technologically advanced company, it's safe to say that "Made in China" and "Inhale it into my body" are two phrases that don't exactly make most of us bristle with confidence given some of the shenanigans we've all heard/read about recently involving Chinese exports.

Furthermore, for each supplier to locate and contract with a laboratory for this testing, it would require each supplier to evaluate the quality of the laboratory they're dealing with. The laboratory industry encompasses a vast range of technology, experience, expertise, and competence. To the untrained eye, a shoddy fly-by-night laboratory appears quite similar to a top-flight operation. So the suppliers are left to make an evaluation of the quality of testing they are receiving, likely without the knowledge required to make an informed evaluation of the laboratory they are dealing with.

This leads me to believe that there's room for a bulk supplier of materials such as PG, VG, and nicotine concentrates to have this rigorous testing done for the suppliers who could then purchase tested/certified lots of materials from that bulk supplier.

Of course, the FDA would prefer that this all go away, and is likely scheming to either torpedo the whole e-smoking industry or at least to make a power-grab such that they could put the industry under the thumb of whichever pharma or tobacco company that does the best job of greasing the most pockets in Washington.

Ultimately, I fear that the FDA is going to legislate our small-suppliers out of business using, in part, the excuse that "You need to be able trust the purity of your e-liquid, and who can you trust if you can't trust the government?" While all the time even a "dirty" e-liquid is likely a few orders of magnitude safer for us than the "safest" tobacco cigarette.

Ok, now I'm getting mad. I'd better stop for now.

If I knew my juice had 1% DEG I'd still use it up; not that big a deal. Shouldnt happen though. I'm pretty sure that DEG was in a tobacco consignment, and I'm sure it will be tested for hence.

I believe DeKang was not connected with DEG.

Regarding past quality issues, one must remember that news is often part of trade war propaganda in which thigs get hyped.

[Darkest]

Trusting the media is almost worse than trusting the government IMHO.

DVap, I have been lurking on this a while and checking back, while I don't pretend to understand all of it I have enjoyed it immensely and just wanted to say thank you both for all the work and spelling it out so people like me can understand

[DVap]

Kinabaloo, I agree with your assessment of the propaganda. DEG's relationship to e-liquids has been over-stated by the media in response to the FDA's spoon-feeding them. While high level DEG contamination has and does kill people, mostly where regulation is lax, the 0.2% limit likely has quite a safety factor built in.

Darkest, Glad you've enjoyed the thread. I can go on and on about this stuff, so it's re-assuring to know that everyone isn't tuning me out.

[Mister]

so it's re-assuring to know that everyone isn't tuning me out.

Tuning you out??? I think you are at the very forefront of anyone really understanding this stuff! (Beyond the basic "it works")