Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[Vaporer]

[quote=kinabaloo;673518]Plus the third you mention later -

ps: re the mouth vs lung absorption issue: often seen this mentioned, but not seen the reasoning; so somewhat doubt its significance at this point, even though the difference would be more about rate than overall absorption (?).

I see it in different light.
People draw/inhale differently. Some heavy deep, some light shallow. Acidic adsorption leans towards the deep inhaler and hold time. Yet if basic, all vapor passes the mucous tissue and would seem more efficient for system capture.
There are some that say due to particle size very little vapor reaches the lungs vs much smaller particles of analog smoke. After seeing peoples reviews they can exhale for at least 3 seconds of solid vapor. It surely isnt all in the mouth. But, its also a demonstration and doesnt necessarily reflect ones normal vaping pattern.
When being used as an alternative to analogs I'd expect the behavior to closely simulate the substituted analog. This being the case, I'd expect far more niotine laden vapor exposed to mucous than lung tissue when used in an unconscience manner.

[kinabaloo]

It is the pH of the vapor that would matter, not the liquid.

[Vaporer]

Kin,

I put it up as "food for thought", observations, sparks that may stimulate an interesting debate or another readers researching and finding some concluding factual data like the pdf that DVap posted, the Google Books ref that concurs with it and the actual factual data posted, found by DVap and Exo in thier actual experiments. Yes, I am aware of the pH of the normal oral environment. There is way to much we don't know still after all this and may never know for a great many of reasons.

I look at the title of the thread and through its evolution see oppoutunities. I dont want to hijack the thread or draw off topic, but its findings may enable us to make the PV system a more efficient process which has its benefits. Nothing more.

[whistlrr]

the mouth is normally ph neutral, or very slightly alkaline.

First, I'm reading discussions that include talk about ammonia.. please tell me you guys are not suggesting putting ammonia in e-liquid (I do tend to 'haze over' the minute I see these high ended chemical etc discussions, but vaping ammonia can't be good)

If you have a snus in your mouth when you're vaping, would the snus maybe change the ph of your mouth and help you get additional nicotine from the vaping?

I wonder, in looking at what to change for the better, if there is a way to safely change our mouths to be more receptive.

I'm seeing the discussion in here about how you can't say the same thing for a liquid form of something as you can for its vapor form (as far as this ph etc go).. Are there mouth sprays or anything else we could use?

And why hasn't anybody (big pharma etc) ever come up with a nicotine mouth spray? reading here it seems a nicotine mouth spray might be 'doable' (I'd still prefer vaping, but its just another side question reading here has made me have).

[kinabaloo]

A mouth spray (under tongue) might be effective but not very appealing.

[Vaporer]

Yes, The ammonia was something I read about. I wouldn't suggest it with my limited knowledge. It was an observation made by a poster Jaxx a long time ago in a thread.
Actually analogs are treated with ammonia if you find the big list of ingredients...surprized? On ref I found says that BT shoots for a smoke pH of 8.2 for best adsorption rate.

I've tried keeping a small amount of a Tums, baking soda in a saliva pool in my mouth while vaping. Sounds gross...huh? not really bad as it sounds, but it keeps the saliva basic.
I even let the vapor bubble through it as I took my draws swishing it around.
Outcome? I could tell absolutely no diff in hit, or any noticeable less vaping from my nic blood levels being higher if it was helping.

Conclusion......making the mouth more basic made no noticeable diff in my personal test I described. I've read others that had the same conclusion on here in diff threads.

I agree the less in the liquid the better.
I quite often have a snus in when I vape. I do notice the nic from the snus decreases my vaping times and can increase my time between vaping sessions.
I have even had the snus while vaping a test flavor with a 0 nic liquid and found it works well. The snus is appearently keeping my blood nic levels up. A Stonewall or Ariva dissovable tobacco works just as well.

There is a thread on here abt making snus juice and on youtube just for vaping.

[Vaporer]

I actually see no reason why a nasal spray couldn't be used. It could even be flavored.
With no heat involved and the loss of nic shown from DVaps testing,
it seems practical to me if a metered type of sprayer was used. Not just a squeeze bottle type.

They due make a Nic Inhaler as a NRT. Very expensive.

[whistlrr]

If you mean tropicalBob's idea of using a snus soaked in PG or VG then put the very snus itself in a cart, I've seen those, tried it, was amazed, I think its a really great idea (except for being concerned it would hurt my atomizers to do that as a regular rule). Also at the time I only had the cruddy US camel snus and a small e-cig. I may at another time later go back try again with one of the other types he suggested like maybe Ettan and now that I have an 801 I could try it in.

does 0 nic snus have the same ph enhancements as regular snus?
if it does, maybe somebody needs to get one of the 0 nic snus types and see if that helps get more from vaping (I'm a little tapped out financially and am going to be for a while so right now its not me who can test this)

I actually happen to have some nicotrol nasal spray.. I'm half tempted to give a squirt of it in my mouth (aimed under my tongue since I've heard this is the best mucous membrane spot in your mouth for being receptive to most things).

I still think the mucous membranes in the nose tend to be even better receptive spot (perhaps rivaling the under the tongue spot).. which is why as I've mentioned elsewhere I have been known to periodically jam my e-cig right up up to my nose (with a little nasal-frendly piece from a vick's inhaler over the mouth piece) and have nasal inhaled from it directly that way (which if you haven't tried this and you're not getting enough nicotine satisfaction, you might try this once, carefully though in case you're not ready for it or it turns out to be not for you). I also think this method might give a more direct route to the lungs, or at very least a faster route and maybe that matters more than we realize?

Does what I'm going to call the 'weight' of smoke vs vapor make a difference? I'm kinda thinking somehow maybe does, smoke might be 'heavier' enough to go farther and since smoke hangs around longer than vape that could be a part of the problem too. (Maybe vapor just doesn't get enough time to hang around long enough for us to absorb from it like smoke does. I know I can't for example seem to send vapor all through me and back out my nose in time before its gone, this was never a problem with smoke)

and when we inhale with our mouths.. how much is being lost by possibly going into our stomachs instead?

Now I'm also wondering what the ph of the inside of a nose is compared to that of a mouth

[DVap]

Re: Ammonia.

This isn't being suggested as a component of e-liquid, simply as an analytical reagent in the titration of nicotine solutions, mainly as a potential "up-titrant" to allow for (possibly) accurate nicotine determination even in the present of otherwise interfering acidic species.

[exogenesis]

Been looking at the posibility of getting a method for the nicotine
concentration in the juice, when acetic &/or citric have been added.

Looks like:

If it's known there's just acetic, it's easy,
just add excess NaOH, titrate & take the volume between pH inflection points.
The pKa of acetic is low enough (4.7) not to screw up the nicotine titration.

If it's known there's just citric, the nicotine curve will be quantitatively altered,
due to the highish pKa (6.4) of one of the citric acid groups.
But the ratio of citric to nicotine is a knowable value at any given intial pH,
from which it's possible to work out the nicotine.
(same method: add excess NaOH & get the inflection points difference, but then calculate).

If there's a mixture of acetic and citric, it's a more complex,
but possibly might be solvable with a fitting algorithm (program),
given the initial pH and full titration curve.

Other than that, you'd have to quantify or remove the organic acids first,
could be a bit involved.

I see it in different light.
People draw/inhale differently. Some heavy deep, some light shallow. Acidic adsorption leans towards the deep inhaler and hold time. Yet if basic, all vapor passes the mucous tissue and would seem more efficient for system capture.
There are some that say due to particle size very little vapor reaches the lungs vs much smaller particles of analog smoke. After seeing peoples reviews they can exhale for at least 3 seconds of solid vapor. It surely isnt all in the mouth. But, its also a demonstration and doesnt necessarily reflect ones normal vaping pattern.
When being used as an alternative to analogs I'd expect the behavior to closely simulate the substituted analog. This being the case, I'd expect far more niotine laden vapor exposed to mucous than lung tissue when used in an unconscience manner.

Clear thinking there,
I wonder how much the 'mouth draw' (like a ciggie) versus the 'lung draw' (dedicated vaper)
can influence auto-titration & used juice strengths.
But I didn't inhale, honest.

snip
.. please tell me you guys are not suggesting putting ammonia in e-liquid

snip

And why hasn't anybody (big pharma etc) ever come up with a nicotine mouth spray?

snip

No, ammonia is not being recommended to be added to juices, please don't, there's no need.

There is a nasal spray, used to use one, it's like snorting ammonia/pepper, 1mg per squirt,
then you go all watery eyed & nose'd and blow it all out
- definitely best NRT in 'speed' terms, definitely worst in usablility terms.