Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[whistlrr]

yes I know there is a nicotine nasal spray NRT (I have some of it, nicotrol/nicorette)

but I don't know of any nicotine mouth spray.. oral spray..

anyway, I tried squirting the nicotrol nasal spray at the base of my tongue as if it were an oral spray and.. nope.. don't recommend that, it was not only bitter and nasty but burned and gave me a bit of a heartburn/chest pain.

[Vaporer]

Whistlrr
"it was not only bitter and nasty but burned and gave me a bit of a heartburn/chest pain. "

Can't say I'm surprized. First it wasn't produced for the taste buds. Kin and many others refer to nicotine as a peppery taste. The heartburn/chestpain is a reaction of rapid nicotine adsorbtion(a fast increase of blood nic levels) and the mucous membranes are a very efficient delivery area.
If you were to put one spray in a container and dilute it 80% then have the ability to respray it. It would take 5 sprays for the same dose. Over a period of 5 min. 1 spray per minute, I doubt you would have that reaction, but still a quick nic craving reduction.

Stonewall dissolvable tobacco contains 4.5mg per portion and will do the same thing if lightly chewed. Hiccups are also a symptom. Ariva is 1.5mg per portion, more like an analog.

Makes one wonder what form or how much is being adsorbed in vapor to me.
I've only had that happen one time when attempting rapid vaping and holding it in.
This would indicate either a lower nicotine volume which DVaps tests prove the amount there or the adsorbtion is slowed way down due to the PG/VG carrier. (Which I'm leaning to.)

I can see a picture forming, and only 1/2 the colors to paint it.

[whistlrr]

[...]Makes one wonder what form or how much is being adsorbed in vapor to me. [...]

Me too!
thats actually part of what I'm trying to understand here myself.. along with whats the difference between fluids, different types of fluids (and other means to deliver nicotine to ourselves and where we deliver them..

I'm trying to look not only at vaping, at all the absorption methods we have

I'm trying to work out things like:

why is it that it only takes a tiny spot of nasal snuff in the nose instead of a whole pouch of snus.. whats the difference between the mucous membranes in the nose vs the mouth..

to me the effect of the nasal spray delivered in my mouth was a surprise and a contradiction to everything else so far.. everything else for the mouth seems to take at least 4x the nicotine

your basic two snus sizes are 4 or 8 mg, which we only get about 1 mg of which = what you get from one whole cigarette (which in actuality has roughly about 9 mg but we still only get that one 1mg out of the whole thing)

then you have this nasal spray which is only .5 mg per squirt and if you get the whole nicotine from it in your nose (if!) then you're getting a whole cigarettes worth in your nose in that two squirt's-dose...

so, no I really didn't figure .5 mg nicotine in my mouth from the spray was going to do that... I'm still trying to work all this out too

lack of education keeps me from getting all this .. I can't even express an example of it "L-ABcadefki when made volatile by molecular structures of n-zyxw" (whatever).. I either need somebody to just kind of break it down in layman's terms and/or I've got to do my own experimenting like I did.. and I wish I could better express why I think exploring how we absorb is really important

I feel kinda bad actualy, butting into this thread with my questions etc, but if I just stand on the outside wondering then just standing outside wondering is all I'm ever going to do.. I have to butt in and ask etc

and the reason I am, and the reason I'm blabbing about this in this thread (which I realize may appear to be derailing in a way but its not) is talking about absorption... I'm trying to understand about absorption better in the hopes we can maximize on it instead or before people start trying to vape some gazillion mg e-liqud (I'm thinking we can offset that at least somewhat maybe if we can first figure out these absorption mysteries and optimize them)

I also wonder given as human beings are so unique from one another (its like my failure to understand how everybody's 'normal body temperature' can possibly be 98.6 -- exactly.. how can that be,, for everyone?? -- same thing for this, I fail to understand how everybody's mouth and nose ph (okay I don't really have a firm grasp on just what 'ph' is exactly either) but how can that be just exactly identical for every human being, and how can we be sure we're all absorbing exactly as well as one another.. I know for example there are disorders that can keep some people from properly absorbing some things (like 'pernicious anemia' for one example which might keep you from absorbing b12 properly from your mouth or stomach).. I don't understand why we wouldn't have natural individual variances (that might not rate as disease level)

maybe we need a parallel thread, 'Chemistry for Dummies' where some of you will just break it down a bit and the rest of us can join in and wonder and participate a bit better (and without clotting up this one), I don't know, because I still think I and others might have some good ideas and whatnot and be able to come up with parts of this that can help, if we can just get a better handle on the basics first

[DVap]

maybe we need a parallel thread, 'Chemistry for Dummies' where some of you will just break it down a bit and the rest of us can join in and wonder and participate a bit better (and without clotting up this one), I don't know, because I still think I and others might have some good ideas and whatnot and be able to come up with parts of this that can help, if we can just get a better handle on the basics first

This can be tough even for those here who are familiar with the basics and even some of the more advanced topics. What we seem to be finding, as that article I recently linked to illustrates, is that the principles in themselves are fairly basic, but with numerous basic principles superimposed, "basic assumptions" don't necessarily lead us to the right answers.

One example: Say we take a 36 mg e-liquid, and add acetic acid until the pH is at ~5.7. The basic principles of acid/base chemistry tell us that the nicotine has been 100% protonated by the acetic acid, and the acetic acid has been reacted 100% in protonating the nicotine. The next basic principle to look at is volatility of nicotine carboxlyates. They're not very high. One might then conclude that this pH 5.7 liquid won't produce any non-protonated nicotine, or any nicotine at all. But this conclusion ignores all the principles involved in the heating and vaporization of the e-liquid.

In short, we are wrestling an octopus. Just when we think we've got it pinned down, here comes another tentacle to smack us over the head.

[whistlrr]

[...] But this conclusion ignores all the principles involved in the heating and vaporization of the e-liquid.

In short, we are wrestling an octopus. Just when we think we've got it pinned down, here comes another tentacle to smack us over the head.

Okay I think this helps me understand a part of the problem a bit better maybe:

since there aren't actually any drug delivery systems that work like an e-cig, nobody has really tested the absorption rates/loss ph, etc on a vapor such as ours?

I suppose the closest thing I can think of to this (which would have been studied then) is an asthmatic's nebulizer machine (which doesn't heat in order to make its mist, which probably isn't very much like our vapor then). I'm thinking maybe we need a vaping physicist onboard to help us out too.

[DVap]

I don't mind testing on myself when I know it's not going to hurt me.

So, I make a liquid:

1 mL 15% nicotine in propylene glycol (0.000924 moles nicotine)
1.11 mL 5% white vinegar (.000924 moles acetic acid)
2.9 mL glycerin

So really we have:

0.85 mL PG
0.15 mL Nicotine
0.055 mL Acetic acid
1.045 mL water
2.9 mL glycerin

This liquid is essentially 30 mg/mL in nicotine, but it has been neutralized with an eqimolar amount of acetic acid, estimated pH ~ 5.7. The 20% water is a bit unusual for an e-liquid, but that's what it took to get the acetic acid into it as I don't have ready access to (or desire to work with) glacial acetic acid.

I test a bit of the liquid (1.5 mL, containing 45 mg nicotine) with bromothymol blue, the color is yellow, indicating that the 45 mg nicotine has been neutralized (protonated) by the acetic acid. I add 2 drops of my regular 10 mg liquid (1 mg nicotine), now the solution is green. This indicates that the nicotine/acetic acid are fairly precisely neutralizing each other. So I've confirmed I have the condition I'm looking for: No excess of nicotine, no excess of acetic acid, pH ~ 5.7. On the nicotine protonation vs pH graph, the nicotine protonation is at 100%. The smell of vinegar is absent, which is to be expected since the acid has been dissociated into protons and acetate anion, with the protons having been sucked up by the nicotine.

CH3C00H + Nicotine ↔ H:Nicotine(+) + CH3COO(-)

There is enough nicotine present (30 mg/mL) to normally knock me on my butt (I usually vape 7.5 - 10 mg/mL). But it's all been protonated via the addition of acetic acid. What happens when I vape it?

The liquid vapes well, and I'm getting a tasty nicotine throat hit. It sure tastes like the 30 mg I mix for my fiancee. Not bad at all. 30 vapes later, I'm a bit dizzy.

What does this somewhat subjective test suggest? It suggests I'm vaping unprotonated nicotine, and a lot of it, from a liquid in which the nicotine is fully protonated.

Preliminary conclusion #1: The vaping process produces unprotonated nicotine even if the nicotine in the liquid is protonated.

Preliminary conclusion #2: The fuss about acids in e-liquids is very possibly over-stated.

Preliminary conclusion #3: The reference I posted is correct; we have to be very careful in our assumptions.

Question #1: So does the e-liquid remaining in the cart become increasingly acidic with vaping, or is the acid being decomposed on the coil? Dunno yet, tired and not feeling like testing the cart right now.

[exogenesis]

Theoretically your 0.185 M Nicotine (3%) and 0.185M acetic (1.11%)
would have initial pH of 6.4.

If you're getting the nictine OK in the vape, it certainly bears
out the article you linked earlier, as you say looks like probably
non-freebase nic. in the juice gets into the vapour as free-base.

Taking the hit for the team

I'll add 'acid in juice' to the list of 'atty clogging'/cleaning experiments
when I get the new vaping-device up & running.

Acids still a bit of a pain for the nic. determination by titration though,
and how would you know if CO was being created?

Did you see my earlier post?
Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP
I think you could use the titration method on your test juice,
except just add say 10ml 0.1M NaOH, titrate down with 0.1M HCl,
get first inflection at pH10.2 (pH indicator ?, phenolphthalein probably not good enough),
second inflection as normal, subtract volumes, calc. nicotine.
Acetic on it's own doesn't add 'titre' to the difference,
(citric does).

Edit : Alizarin Yellow might be good for the pH10.2 inflection.

Just came across this post that says JC juices have ph values of 6 to 4.5 !

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...tml#post462816

Think those figures were got by pH paper & neat juice,
to get pH6 with 24mg juice JC would have to be adding
1.3% citric or 0.9% acetic, sounds feasable.

pH4.5 would require 2.2% citric or 2.6% acetic
(amounts 'switch over' cos of differing ionisation constants)
Getting a bit high, be like vaping vinegar?

[DVap]

Theoretically your 0.185 M Nicotine (3&#37 and 0.185M acetic (1.11%) would have initial pH of 6.4.

If you're getting the nictine OK in the vape, it certainly bears out the article you linked earlier, as you say looks like probably non-freebase nic. in the juice gets into the vapour as free-base.

Taking the hit for the team

I'll add 'acid in juice' to the list of 'atty clogging'/cleaning experiments when I get the new vaping-device up & running.

Acids still a bit of a pain for the nic. determination by titration though, and how would you know if CO was being created?

Did you see my earlier post?
Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP
I think you could use the titration method on your test juice, except just add say 10ml 0.1M NaOH, titrate down with 0.1M HCl, get first inflection at pH10.2 (pH indicator ?, phenolphthalein probably not good enough), second inflection as normal, subtract volumes, calc. nicotine. Acetic on it's own doesn't add 'titre' to the difference, (citric does).

Think those figures were got by pH paper & neat juice, to get pH6 with 24mg juice JC would have to be adding 1.3% citric or 0.9% acetic, sounds feasable.

pH4.5 would require 2.2% citric or 2.6% acetic (amounts 'switch over' cos of differing ionisation constants) Getting a bit high, be like vaping vinegar?

Hmm.. took my ~5.7 pH from a graph of pH vs nicotine protonation. ~5.7 is the pH where single protonation reaches 100%, and below which, double protonation begins. At least according to this graph. If the initial pH were 6.4, the indicator would have started green, but it started yellow, indicating pH < 6. Not particularly relevant here, since the point of this test was to see what I could taste/feel subjectively from equimolar nicotine and acetic acid.

As far as the fate of the acetate, that's a tough one.

Simple enough is the original:

CH3C00H + Nicotine ↔ H:Nicotine(+) + CH3COO(-)

So now we have to imagine what happens on heating:

H:Nicotine(+) + CH3COO(-) --> Nicotine + CH3COOH (both removed from the liquid in the vapor?)

Or maybe:

H:Nicotine(+) + CH3COO(-) --> Nicotine + CO2 + CH4 (but I really don't expect acetic acid to form carbon dioxide/methane under vaping conditions... but who knows? We're learning to expect the unexpected, and it does balance).

I just don't know what happens. But I do know that I get nicotine in the vapor from the equimolar liquid.

Am I going to have to vape 1% vinegar to find out?

As far as my pursuing a method to compensate for acetic and/or citric acid, unless I have the meter available, it's out of my reach.

I have a vague, not quite certain, notion that metering the up titration of citric acid might be more straightforward than modeling would suggest.

[whistlrr]

I've tried keeping a small amount of a Tums, baking soda in a saliva pool in my mouth while vaping. Sounds gross...huh? not really bad as it sounds, but it keeps the saliva basic.
I even let the vapor bubble through it as I took my draws swishing it around. Outcome? I could tell absolutely no diff in hit, or any noticeable less vaping from my nic blood levels being higher if it was helping.

Conclusion......making the mouth more basic made no noticeable diff in my personal test I described. I've read others that had the same conclusion on here in diff threads.

Disclaimer:
Don't anybody run off and do this (I'm sure not going to) even though the ingredients I'm asking after are safe in and of themselves this question is reserved for those who know what they're doing:

The recipe for making homemade snus (haven't done this myself) includes baking soda. If you go to make a homemade nasal cleaning soothing spray they tell you to put salt (saline solution) plus a pinch of baking soda (and this is explained as being because this is more like your natural nose/body produces and isn't as hard on you as just plain water), baking soda might be an ingredient in homemade nasal snuff as well, and there are certain South American leaves that apparently if chewed, for maximum benefit are best chewed with baking soda (or a related type of edible powdered lime) mixed in

so (insert disclaimer above here) what if we were to add baking soda to our e-liquids (or possibly salt/saline solution)? Would this be a step in the right direction for desired ph, or is that going the wrong way?

[whistlrr]

Am I going to have to vape 1% vinegar to find out?

I can't quite tell if you're directly testing to try to make it more potent or if you're trying to test by by the other way, intentionally trying to null and void the nicotine by moving the ph (I think that's what you're doing, that'd clearly be safer)

Can I suggest vinegar made from apple cider? It might be just a little less unpleasant than other types (and you're in just the right season to get it)