Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[DVap]

Finding the most efficient way of nic adsorbtion may become a larger issue very soon.
If the FDA gains control of the strength its most likely doomed to be added to the list of failed NRT's we have now. The recent testing referred to earlier in the thread was allowed 16mg nic liquid.
The PV's success rate of even being a better substitute is astonishing to say the least.
Even after being used for a year. NRT's stats look good in the begining weeks but fall off horribly with time. I don't see this with PV & eliquid.

I still believe in the X factor for 2 simple reasons. Slower adsorbtion rate (longer vaping time vs analogs) and that sometimes feeling of still missing something.

DVap, the reason for my earlier question:
I am content vaping 18mg, somedays I vaped 12 from "addin's" not noticing much diff.
I've ocasionally toped off a cart with 24mg, but never get the reaction you described in your blog. Not the horrilble part, just the buzz....liek that analog afer waking, not smoking afer having the flu.....when nic level are way low and increased back.
I'll admit that there are times I'd like the short buzz. It may be the mitigating health condition of my lungs, but I have experienced early on when begining vaping and never since. A personal adsorbtion factor? It has happened before.

Maybe I should just try a fresh cart, 1st thing in the morning when I should be low and try a round of 36mg till my self titrating body says......"yea, that's working" and stop there. I just hate to go up in mg. The simple figure you gave me gives me a chance to establish my intake ( I like the per sec draw) for the mg in the cart I'm receiving.
I have noticed I go longer periods at times before vaping again, but I have snus and dissolvables that I'm sure interfere, I would think to the upside, but the chest discomfort and hiccups are all bout I've ever had in months and those only on 2-3 occasions.

That strikes me as strange....................any thoughts?

A very nice summation DVap...and I noticed Kins number slid towards his side lol

I've always been a fan of keeping to my preferred level, and if I'm feeling like a kick, I can always drip a couple drops of 36 mg onto the bridge before sliding the cart back on.

Analogs, in all likelihood, provide a "hit" synergy that vaping misses out on. They also provide a lot of tremendously nasty bonus compounds that vaping also misses out on.

As far as what the FDA may do to neuter the effectiveness of vaping, perhaps by a draconian ban, perhaps by limiting e-liquid concentration to 16 mg (that would piss me off mightily since I prefer mixing down from concentrates), vapers will find a way. I've joked (or half joked) that I could vape 0 mg all day so long as I'm wearing a 14 mg patch.

30% vs 40%, wars have been fought over lesser things.

[Vaporer]

Yea, thats whats amazed me with the PV and eliquid. One does seem to spend more time vaping though. So an increase in adsorbtion time would please me.
I do carry a 24mg 3 ml bottle to top off a cart on occasion. It might be just under the threshhold I'm looking for.
If it came down to no buzz vs having the "extras", no buzz wins hands down.
Vaping satisfies the hard craving for analogs one falls back into when trying other NRT's quite well.
The little things I miss really only cross my mind maybe 1-2 time a week and arent missed enough to even think of pufffing an analog just to see if it satisfies them.
Pretty low on the urgency pole.
Medium to light exsmokers do seem to have the least , if any , concerns with vaping.
I'd lean to the "baddies" contributing high here. They've admitted to putting substances in to do just those exact things including mood behavior.

"Don't Look Back"....................Boston

[CrazyTerrie11]

Vaping satisfies the hard craving for analogs one falls back into when trying other NRT's quite well.
The little things I miss really only cross my mind maybe 1-2 time a week and arent missed enough to even think of pufffing an analog just to see if it satisfies them.
Pretty low on the urgency pole."Don't Look Back"....................Boston

Wow!!! Boston....takes me back a few. Anyway, I agree with the above and the one thing that really really keeps me from picking up an analog just to see if i want it is the SMELL. OMG I cant believe that I smelled like that for all those years. Never again.. If big tobacco and big pharma and the fda win i wound never put another dime in there pocket. If e-cigs become illegal i will quit... They lose and I will still win. Dirty *(^%ar^$

[exogenesis]

I can lose sleep going over the matrix in my head.

If I had to suggest a starting point, I would suggest the most basic as a starting point:

3.7 volts, PG/nic at different strengths. Does an efficiency gradient exist? If the answer is "yes", then Lord help us, because it's not going to get any easier when flipping through the matrix.

I agree, start simple.
Got this feeling there will be a difference with voltage, just based
on people who say high volts give more nic. hit - but then again that might be an
'amount vaporised' rather than 'efficacy per juice volume' thing (?).

Trying not to get involved with the latest discussions here atm,
too many questions without answers, wish there was a way to easily
measure your own blood-nic. I don't think Cotine tests will give a true
picture (?)


btw just to make sure, should I post stuff about these tests here,
- too much clutter ?, or should I go new thread with linkback?

[DVap]

I agree, start simple.
Got this feeling there will be a difference with voltage, just based
on people who say high volts give more nic. hit - but then again that might be an
'amount vaporised' rather than 'efficacy per juice volume' thing (?).

Trying not to get involved with the latest discussions here atm,
too many questions without answers, wish there was a way to easily
measure your own blood-nic. I don't think Cotine tests will give a true
picture (?)


btw just to make sure, should I post stuff about these tests here,
- too much clutter ?, or should I go new thread with linkback?

Keeping it here would be fine... fewer threads to wrestle with.

[kinabaloo]

I agree, start simple.
Got this feeling there will be a difference with voltage, just based
on people who say high volts give more nic. hit - but then again that might be an
'amount vaporised' rather than 'efficacy per juice volume' thing (?).

Trying not to get involved with the latest discussions here atm,
too many questions without answers, wish there was a way to easily
measure your own blood-nic. I don't think Cotine tests will give a true
picture (?)

Might be as simple as getting through more liquid with a higher voltage, but 3.7v is already giving plenty of power (temp) so one can suspect more decomp with small levels of toxins experienced as 'hit'. As high voltage devices are peripheral in the market, this is less urgent as a matter of investigation, i suggest. Using typical values would be best - 3.7v, (mostly) PG juice, unflavored perhaps unless testing flavors (?), typical puff times/patterns etc.

'Too many questions without answers' - need questions first, then experiments to approach answers. Whether measurement of cotinine is sufficient is an example of a god question. Not as direct, but a urine test should at least correlate with absorption (though metabolic rate, diet etc will influence the values); worth considering.

DVap, there is a good argument for using '40%' as this is (just about) possible and errs on the side of safety, if not typicality. The thing is that all the evidence, anecdotal but plenty of it, suggests 30-40%, not 100%, not 10%.

[Vaporer]

I think the spirited recent "debate" was very productive. As it raised many questions, but the actual test should be weighed for the ones that provide the most practically useable data from the tests that can be ran. Which would be determined by the tester. The other input may open more credence previously unseen to a particular test.

I did find this as an interesting fact to interject. IMHO
Its the particle size of vaporized PG. I believe the particle size of analog smoke has been posted or readily available. I'll continue to search for the vaporized particle size of VG.
The data is in this pdf on page 4 just before the Application section indicating a particle size of 1 -4.7 micrometers for vaporized PG. I feel this is important for comparitive distribution in the lung vs smoke particle size as the carrier medium.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/ca...1990004087.pdf

Concerning the voltage used, I'm for 3.7v as the starting point simply due to this is the standard of mass produced units available on the market. 2v seems impractical, though it may show an interesting outcome, due to the fact that most units use protected batteries with a cutoff of 2.75v. So the user will not see any effect without radical modification to the unit as it will fail to operate at that voltage. It doesnt mean a unit cant be modified to operate in that range. At 2v assuming a standard atomizer of 3.4ohms is consuming .588A a producing a mere 1.1764 watts. Possibly not enough to vaporize PG.

I presently have an atomizer still getting daily use at 4.5ohms producing 3 watts, not 5watts, as a factory unit which should be running cooler and still provides similar vapor production, noticeably longer battery life and less carbon formation for the time it has been in use. No noticle less vaping time or "hit" has been noticeable. More later on this as I do have 2 more atomizer designs that greatly increase the thermal mass directly exposed to the atomized liquid to approx. 80% vs the approx 60% in the factory design.

[exogenesis]

Interesting, I have often wondered if the larger particle size of PG vapour
is a main reason for diffences for adsorption rate vs smoke.
Smoke : 0.1 to 1 micron
and you said
PG : 1 to 5 micron
big difference, but actually closer than I thought it was.

Ciggie smoke quoted as 80% (63 to 89) retention in the lung,
be interesting to know what it is for PG (with 'nominal' vaping styles).


Voltages: I was going to use this as power (supposedly it's current-limited)

(thumbnail)

Produces:

cold, 3Vsetting=560mA, 4.5Vsetting=910mA, 5Vsetting=1060mA, 6Vsetting=1280mA

but there's a voltage drop with load, measured at steady state,
on another atomizer (they do vary a bit):

'3Vsetting' : 690 mA and 2.9 V actual
(only 2.0 watts - but this setting gives quite a lot of vapour)

'4.5Vsetting' : 1100 mA and 4.2 V actual
(4.6 watts)

With 3.7V batteries, is there a significant volt drop?
Presumably it's actually the current that is the vapour amount determining factor.

A reference chart of nichrome with current, atty wire is 0.004 inch = 0.1mm




Nichrome has very little resistance change with temperature
at least that's what's generally stated, but the above '3V' & '4.5V'
volt/current values give 4.2 and 3.8 ohms respectively, which is
a drop in resistance with higher current (!)
(maybe that's the power supply doing that though).

When being cooled by juice, I wonder if the current is the same, or not,
for a given applied voltage.

Questions first - well yes, broadly, but I'm expecting possibly some
questions to arise from the experiment results.

[kinabaloo]

I remember that between room temp and red-hot, the NiCr resistance increases about 2%. E-liquid would put the surface temp at around 135C, roughly, causing an increase in resistance of not more than 1%. The voltage drop seen with higher currents is almost all due to the internal resistance of the power supply.

Heat up time becomes very slow once the voltage is much below about 3V. Heat up time (temp ramp) is another factor in the matrix; well, sort of, because while some of the liquid is heated from room temp by already being on/in the coil wick, some arrives onto an already heated coil. In real-life, moreso than with a carefully setup autovaper, there will be times that some of the juice experiences landing on on red-hot coil (if it is not temp controlled, and none are atm).

Vaporer - an interesting thread currently in the Atomiser Modding forum using a ceramic heater element (probably just a ceramic coated nichrome coil though); might be of interest.

All - I have completed some notes on nicotine and MAOIs and posted them together with the previous notes on absorption in a separate thread:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...tml#post683086

[Vaporer]

Very nice post exo.

I was surprized the of the particle size too. Hard not to believe NASA though. lol
The smaller smoke particle should weigh less than the PG containing much less moisture too. Restricting deeper penetration and surface coverage. This may explain the partial need for higher nic levels or lean a strong weight towards it.

I've seen this chart posted and it poses some questions at a glance. But it is the optimal standard, which we arent using. Since, we expect faster heat up times. Most atty wire used in rewinds is 36ga. .005 dia. The 3.7v batteries fully charged wil read 4.15v. If protected, they will cutoff at 2.75v. This is the protected circuitry limits. They will still be producing vapor at 2.75v , but at a reduced rate. According to the chart, it should take .3A with 38ga wire to produce 400*. The current will vary slightly due to the air temp cooling the wire, but not much (a slight resistance change).
Oddly looking, when using ohms law with the 36ga wire and a 3.4 ohm atty it would reach 400* with .380A. Yet when calculated and measured during use, it will draw abt 1A. With that much current difference you'd expect it to look like your 6v pic, but it doesnt.

The wire will still draw the amperage and not be as red from the airstream cooling the wire. The heat is still being produced, just dispersed by the flow volume.

As suggested before some nic may be released at lower temps. This may be a narrow window as I have ran an atty at just above 2v (2.25v) producing little vapor and no noticeable increase in hit. At that temp, the nic released at higher temps must still be bound.
People running the higher voltages report a loss in flavor, but much more vapor. The increased heat will vaporize more liquid quicker as its not cooled down nearly as low.
That makes me wonder abt normal vaping conditions when the ambient air is 80* on a summer day and 30* on a winter day. The intake air stream is already 50* different directly aimed at the coil.

During vaping the coil resembles your 2nd picture on a long vape of 5-10 seconds. With no air pull it will look more like picture #3. With the amperage draw using ohms law, it should look like image 4 or 5, but we aren't allowing time for the full effect to happen.

I have been looking to source out some 38ga wire. 36 & 34ga are readily available very cheap from Jacobs Online. The next ga they provide is 40 which is abt 70ohms per ft.
Not a very lengthy atty lol.


I've see some of the ceramic ideas and spoke to some of the poster there Kin. The ceramic is ok, but is inert thermal mass requiring heat, not producing any of its own as NiCr wire does. This will cause slower warm up times and greater current to work well. Also being wickless it will need a better feed source of liquid than just the spray from the small amount of metal mesh exposed now. It can work, but some redesigning will be needed or vapor production will be low. A lot like the wickless atty I designed. It didnt suffer a long warm up time though. One has tried a glass bulb whicjh I had thought of before too, but again, it has problems to concur too. Not easy for a home modder with limited materials and resources for fabrication.

Good post guys...............