Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[kinabaloo]

I've see some of the ceramic ideas and spoke to some of the poster there Kin. The ceramic is ok, but is inert thermal mass requiring heat, not producing any of its own as NiCr wire does. This will cause slower warm up times and greater current to work well. Also being wickless it will need a better feed source of liquid than just the spray from the small amount of metal mesh exposed now. It can work, but some redesigning will be needed or vapor production will be low. A lot like the wickless atty I designed. It didnt suffer a long warm up time though. One has tried a glass bulb whicjh I had thought of before too, but again, it has problems to concur too. Not easy for a home modder with limited materials and resources for fabrication.

Yes - it's not a special heat producing ceramic and there is no proper temp control - which is what i was interested in. They mostly just see the coil as the weakness for a long lasting life, which is not quite true - it's more about the temp range it cycles through (expansion/contraction stresses). Temp control would achieve so much more than just longer atty life. So I'm out of that project. But will check on it now and then. Direct liquid feed is also a good idea of course.

[exogenesis]

I remember that between room temp and red-hot, the NiCr resistance increases about 2%. E-liquid would put the surface temp at around 135C, roughly, causing an increase in resistance of not more than 1%. The voltage drop seen with higher currents is almost all due to the internal resistance of the power supply.

Agreed, at least it power supply related, possibly the low-grade 'current limiting' circuitry.

The 3.7v batteries fully charged wil read 4.15v. If protected, they will cutoff at 2.75v. This is the protected circuitry limits. They will still be producing vapor at 2.75v

So a fresh battery actually applies 4.15V, dropping to 2.75 as it discharges and cuts-off ?,
thats quite a range. If the internal resistance of a battery is about 0.7 ohm (?),
& coil is nominally 3.5 to 4 ohm then vaping current could be anywhere between
2.75/(4+0.7) and 4.15/(3.5+0.7), i.e. 0.575 to 0.990 A = 1.6 to 4 watts with typical vaping setup.

Air temp may have to go into the matrix too, along with humidity & oxygen/no oxygen in gas phase.
And thinking about it wetness/dryness of coil (juice flow rate) may have more effect on coil temp
than anything else - or is there always excess juice & cooling is fairly constant?

Got some 0.058mm nichrome (550ohm/meter = 168ohm/ft),
with a view to making a 4-strand wickless atty coil (the wire is the wick),
could get 0.025mm (670 ohm/ft) as well, for a 16-strand coil,
could even go to 0.1mm tungsten wire for a single strand coil of 0.7 metre length
(20x the usual 35mm in current attys), could take a bit of forming though.

[kinabaloo]

Agreed, at least it power supply related, possibly the low-grade 'current limiting' circuitry.


So a fresh battery actually applies 4.15V, dropping to 2.75 as it discharges and cuts-off ?,
thats quite a range. If the internal resistance of a battery is about 0.7 ohm (?),
& coil is nominally 3.5 to 4 ohm then vaping current could be anywhere between
2.75/(4+0.7) and 4.15/(3.5+0.7), i.e. 0.575 to 0.990 A = 1.6 to 4 watts with typical vaping setup.

Air temp may have to go into the matrix too, along with humidity & oxygen/no oxygen in gas phase.
And thinking about it wetness/dryness of coil (juice flow rate) may have more effect on coil temp
than anything else - or is there always excess juice & cooling is fairly constant?

Got some 0.058mm nichrome (550ohm/meter = 168ohm/ft),
with a view to making a 4-strand wickless atty coil (the wire is the wick),
could get 0.025mm (670 ohm/ft) as well, for a 16-strand coil,
could even go to 0.1mm tungsten wire for a single strand coil of 0.7 metre length
(20x the usual 35mm in current attys), could take a bit of forming though.

Air humidity would be worth looking at (this can vary very widely, though on the other hand not a user controllable factor); air temp less so(will affect the operating temp a bit though).

Air cooling would vary more between models than as a variable in a given atty. Similarly with juice flow - this varies between models and even between instances of the same model and will greatly affect the coil temp. This flow is also not a consistent flow (fits and starts).

The multistrand idea is well worth looking into.

[Vaporer]

All well said.
This opens up a pandoras box effect on atomizers as I've seen them.
At the moment of use they all become variable in one way or another. This is why I've always stated to be better the design will have to be changed and not by a little, or live with what we have, making something somewhat better. Not an easy task.

Air flow can be different by each individual, so a critical orfice can be used. This may not satisfy the draw potential of many. Draw effects how the atomized liquid is delivered to the coil. Some will have vry minute droplets hit while others splatter it due to size. With the wick, wetness is critical as if let to dry formation starts and reduces the wicking and surface ability of vapor forming substances. Forcing the user to draw harder and longer.(insert critical orfice). Once this degradation starts the decline begins farther with oxidation of the coil surface, dropping temps due to power. I can go on and on about more variables but at this point it serves no purpose only to show that the atomizer is a quickly changing variable with a coil/wick as its source.

There have been suggested peizo arrangements, one is patented, the original design for the e cig if I remember right. I have it bookmarked. A brilliant Chinese thinker whose idea has been modified by others and economics for production. Checking his other patents will amaze you.

I have had this image in the back of my mind for a long time. It closely resembles exo's last image on 6v. A heat source that has the intensity to vaporize the eliquid BEFORE it reaches the source of the heat. Sort of a "plasma ball" effect. Any liquid nearing the source is vaporized and drawn past so the source remains more of an uneffected constant. There have been suggestions tossed in as comments in other places/threads on such things as lasers, microwave, pizeo at frequencies high enough the friction generates heat sufficient for vaporization.
Power requirements and size are the immediate question even in minor questions of applicability.

This is more towards my background fields than the chemistry of this thread, its intent, and I could go on and on. Although at some point it intersects with how the chemistry is being affected.

Rather than dilute this thread, what do you think of starting a new one strictly on redesigining atomizers? There are atomizer threads already in existance, but the new thread would address and dwelve into the realms and practicality of the suggested above and beyond. PM me some suggested titles and I'll start it with a guideline of the whys of a new thread , its purpose...etc......

Let me know.

[kinabaloo]

Vaporer -

Perhaps create a new thread. I don't mind either way, though I did move all my thoughts on ansorption and MAOIs etc to a new thread here :

Some notes on nicotine, absorption, addictiveness and MAOIs

Piezoelectric transducers do not vaporise the liquid, use ultrasonic vibration to create a mist/fog of droplets. Given the huge nic loss and unknown resulting products, it might be time to look hard at ultrasonic designs.

ps: Just completed a redesign over at Vaping Buzzz

[DVap]

Alternately, we could ask Sun to re-title this thread to "DIY Brainstorming", to reflect the fact that it's expanded beyond it's initial focus.

Sounds OK?

After all, some of the stuff posted here is quite practical, and much of it is brainstorming... which sometimes leads us into to a cul-de-sac, and sometimes produces practical results and perspectives.

It all comes back to getting the most out of our e-liquid, using one approach or another.

[exogenesis]

tbh there's a huge crossover in here with I guess
60% DIY liquid (in the nic. quantification sense),
35% General vaping (in the how & what happens sense)
5%, so far, Atomizer mods (in the ideas & variables sense),
I've mostly been talking about the latter for the purposes
of understanding the variables (to put into testing the effect
on nic. delivery efficiency).

It depends on how wide ranging the thread is supposed to be,
I think I'd agree with Vaporer than the atty design stuff could
be better served in a seperate thread - maybe starts off with
a summary of atty ideas up till now (with links), then on to new departures
'A randomish walk through new atomizer ideas' comes to mind
as a title

Truthfully I though the nic. quantification stuff should be in a new
'E-Juice Science' sub-forum, rather than 'DIY liquid' or 'experiments with equipment'.

[Vaporer]

The way I saw it was this thread has acomplished its intended purpose.
Yes, it has varied from topic at times, but that doesnt mean there still isnt a lot to be discussed and done in the chemistry end.
Starting diverse topics make it a have to "filter through" thread , which i must say I dont care for. Anything found or asked in the other threads can be referred back to here for discussion or evaluation from the chemistry stand point.

I didnt like the idea of just jacking an atomizers thread for the sake of looking at new designs where people are just rebuilding the same models. I figure the thread will attract all levels of people from noobs to electronic wizards so some lively and lenghtly discussions/explanations will go on. Seems improper to interject that into such a deep chem based thread and people looking to learn and understand its workings and reasonings.

exo, I think yours is related enough to the chemistry end to stay here IMO.

What area for the atty thread? DIY since there might be some experimentals or just in the General area? I vote general...and let flow through what come in.

[exogenesis]

OK, I wasn't really thinking of jumping ship,
I'd guess the Atty thread would probably be good in any
of the General, Modding or Experiments-With sections.

Depends on the emphasis you want I suppose,
can always get it moved if it turns out different to expectations.

This really speaks to the way this forum 'scatters' info generally,
an Atty ideas review thread would be a good focus, but you'd
have to ask the originators of info if they're OK with stuff they posted
being linked-in, i.e. rather than just being re-written without back-reference,
seen a bit of that going on here and there

[DVap]

Yea, a science, physiology, and mechanical sub-section would be nice for some of this. The only reason I landed this thread here in DIY e-liquid was the obvious crossover between nicotine concentrates that form the basis of many DIY liquids and the desire to have them be as advertised.

Perhaps a forum section or sub-section titled "The Laboratory" would be a good addition to provide a home for threads dealing with scientific and mechanical tinkering... where ideas and experiments can be brainstormed, discussed, dissected, and refined. Not so much in the sense of the modder areas which try to do practical things, but more a speculative and experimental area that might end up doing practical things, but not necessarily.