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Thread: Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlondieLocs View Post
    Hey DVap,

    Funny you should experiment with this. Another member has been doing the same thing for a while now. A tobacco e-cig?

    Would be interesting to hear your results, if any.
    I read the thread.. I must say that's a twist I'd not considered. Saturate a mini pillow of Snus and use the pillow as the atomizer filler.

    My eyeball estimate puts those mini Camel Snus pillows at 700 mg, probably about 1% nicotine, so you'd be shoving 7 mg of nicotine into the atty.

    Compare to an 12 mg liquid with a PTB in a 510 cart holding maybe 0.75 mL of liquid and you've got 9 mg of nicotine in the atty.

    The two compare well, as long as you're not a high nicotine vaper.

    The downside to the Snus pillow would seem to be actually being able to get the nicotine to come out of the Snus in the pillow. It's a much more dense and complex matrix than just polyfiber/e-liquid or PTB/e-liquid.

    I'm skeptical that vaping off the Snus pillow allows much available nicotine.

    I will say this.. if folks enjoy the Snus, and they're willing to accept the wear and tear on their atty's, I commend them for their creativity. Not everybody is a nicotine fiend after all!

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    I'm pretty sure Camel Snus is 6 mg nicotine, and VG and ethyl alcohol seem to work quite a bit better than PG, for what it's worth. I have some Snus juice in my fridge, but it was the Frost, so I really didn't use much of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bearscreek View Post
    I'm pretty sure Camel Snus is 6 mg nicotine, and VG and ethyl alcohol seem to work quite a bit better than PG, for what it's worth. I have some Snus juice in my fridge, but it was the Frost, so I really didn't use much of it.
    If it's 6, then I'm pretty happy with my guess of 7.

    It's fair to say that for the nicotine fiends among us, Snus isn't a good e-liquid source via soaking. But, for some folks, it makes a fine liquid, nicotine or no.

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    Actually, 7 mg was an excellent guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVap View Post
    ... I was just surprised to see how well those Chinese folks nailed it.
    What a cheek!

    Quote Originally Posted by DVap View Post
    Right now, I'm cursing. I had the whole procedure typed out, and I hit the wrong key and sent it all to /dev/null.
    You really need to move up to Windows

    Seriously though, it's very nice to see a chemist on-board.

    I saved this link a few weeks back, waiting for someone who would be able to appreciate the level of discussion regarding the chemistry of extraction of nicotine; looks interesting:

    http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/v...d.php?tid=3404

    ps: as you mention auto-vaping devices, perhaps you could run this test: To determine if nicotine in PG (no other ingredients) leaves a deposit. I know that PG does not (though VG does decompose, around 1%). Perhaps by oxidising or via other pathways end up a solid / carbonised residue on the heater coil (so obviously a new atomiser would be required for the test).
    Last edited by kinabaloo; 09-09-2009 at 03:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVap View Post
    I'm getting the germ of an idea for a couple experiments.

    Set up an e-smoking machine that draws the vapor through an impinger with a dilute sulfuric acid solution with a force similar to inhalation to trap any nicotine in the vapor as nicotine sulfate. Set it up for 5 second "puffs", topping off the cart after every 10 puffs. Repeat for 100 puffs. Isolate the nicotine from the impinger and determine ug nicotine/puff.

    Or, load up a cart with e-liquid that I've already determined for nicotine. Vape it for awhile, topping off as needed. Determine the nicotine in the liquid remaining in the cart to determine if vaping preferentially pulls off the PG and concentrates the nicotine in the cart. (This being a pet theory of mine that could well be right or wrong).
    An interesting alternative theory for the 'missing nicotine'.

    People often mention taste variations and I suspected fractional distillation at the coil and chromatographic separation in the metal mesh; the chromatographic separation could take place in the cart filler too; surface chemistry might also play a role in which case choice of filler could be important.

    Which reminds me, nickel (the metal foam) often acts as a catalyst (just possibly the NiCr coil alloy too) so these might be accessories to nicotine reactions that also might help explain the missing nicotine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinabaloo View Post
    I saved this link a few weeks back, waiting for someone who would be able to appreciate the level of discussion regarding the chemistry of extraction of nicotine; looks interesting:
    Yea, I've seen that stuff. Some of those guys know what they're talking about, others are talking out of their lower orifice and I'll be expecting to see their Darwin Award nominations any day now. Not one of them gives more than a passing glance to the risk involved in what they're trying to do.

    Ultimately, if someone is willing to do the work, and doesn't care if he might get himself killed (or get someone else killed via leaving a contaminated work area), and can separate the nonsense from the science (and some of the latter procedures require some pretty specialized equipment), starting with a pound of really strong 3% Virginia, he might come away with 10 mL of essentially pure nicotine (and I wonder how he's going to dispose of all the solvents?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kinabaloo View Post
    An interesting alternative theory for the 'missing nicotine'.

    People often mention taste variations and I suspected fractional distillation at the coil and chromatographic separation in the metal mesh; the chromatographic separation could take place in the cart filler too; surface chemistry might also play a role in which case choice of filler could be important.
    I can't say I agree or disagree with what's going on at the business end of the atomizer. The design is, in my opinion, a monstrosity. I'd much prefer the NiCr coil to be encased in a low thermal mass ceramic in turn encased in a thin stainless steel casing (much like a cartridge heater unit). Though even at low thermal mass, I'm sure this would add appreciably to the warm-up time.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinabaloo View Post
    Which reminds me, nickel (the metal foam) often acts as a catalyst (just possibly the NiCr coil alloy too) so these might be accessories to nicotine reactions that also might help explain the missing nicotine?
    Possibly, I've really never worked professionally with catalysts and I'm so rusty with reaction chemistry that I'd have to relearn a good bit of it, so I'd best not speculate.

    Sorry I have more "I dunno's" than answers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DVap View Post
    I can't say I agree or disagree with what's going on at the business end of the atomizer. The design is, in my opinion, a monstrosity. I'd much prefer the NiCr coil to be encased in a low thermal mass ceramic in turn encased in a thin stainless steel casing (much like a cartridge heater unit). Though even at low thermal mass, I'm sure this would add appreciably to the warm-up time.



    Possibly, I've really never worked professionally with catalysts and I'm so rusty with reaction chemistry that I'd have to relearn a good bit of it, so I'd best not speculate.

    Sorry I have more "I dunno's" than answers!
    Other than acting as a potential catalyst, NiCr is pretty much inert so the present design is fine (especially as current battery power limits the us in heat-up time as you say.

    If you do get an auto-vaper running, would be really nice to now if nicotine does degrade at all (it could also be degrading and still expelled as vapors but I have a suspicion about this.

    pa: An alternative experiment would be to try and collect the condensed vapor and try to see if all the nicotine is accounted for.
    Last edited by kinabaloo; 09-09-2009 at 04:49 AM.

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    Any chance that the juice understrength was down though oxidation having been opened for a while (though i know that 22% is a huge difference)?

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