Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

[exogenesis]

As a matter of interest I completed an initial test by auto-vaping
5ml of 'pharma' 70mg/ml nic. in PG (only).
(Many technical & practical difficulties got in the way, quite frustrating)

Got 65% nicotine in the collected vapour, which strongly bears out
DVap's initial cryogenic vapour test,
(must admit I was having trouble believing that 40% of the nic.
'dissapears' on the coil - had to see for myself)

My question is, is the titratable nicotine tertiary-amine nitrogen
converted to a primary or secondary amine form in the vapour
(i.e. un-ionisable, so it's not directly pH titrated/able),
or is it left behind on the coil in a solid form.

Would need some further somewhat more sophisticated, but well known,
quantitative chemistry methods to find out.

[unmatter]

Thanks for the feedback all. I will agree that citric acid has the potential to be harmful.

So for the sake of brevity, let's assume that it is harmful. Would it be a good idea to try to remove it by mixing in some calcium hydroxide and filtering off the calcium citrate that precipitates? I'm thinking it's probably a small amount of citric acid in solution so I could use a very dilute Ca(OH)2 solution.

If it makes sense to do this then what strength solution would be a good starting point and how much can I expect would need to be added to the flavoring?

I should add that I have a chemistry background (general and organic in college, and worked in a lab for a couple years), but I haven't used it in about 20 years. I would need to hit the old text books before doing this!

[kinabaloo]

As a matter of interest I completed an initial test by auto-vaping
5ml of 'pharma' 70mg/ml nic. in PG (only).
(Many technical & practical difficulties got in the way, quite frustrating)

Got 65% nicotine in the collected vapour, which strongly bears out
DVap's initial cryogenic vapour test,
(must admit I was having trouble believing that 40% of the nic.
'dissapears' on the coil - had to see for myself)

My question is, is the titratable nicotine tertiary-amine nitrogen
converted to a primary or secondary amine form in the vapour
(i.e. un-ionisable, so it's not directly pH titrated/able),
or is it left behind on the coil in a solid form.

Would need some further somewhat more sophisticated, but well known,
quantitative chemistry methods to find out.

65% is getting better Wonder why? Because no VG so lower BP?

If the nic is lost (as seems the case), might be another vapor form rather than leading to a residue; seems no longer psychoactive though, or minimally so.

unmatter - i don't think it's worth doing. Just that it would be better if it was not there.

[DVap]

As a matter of interest I completed an initial test by auto-vaping
5ml of 'pharma' 70mg/ml nic. in PG (only).
(Many technical & practical difficulties got in the way, quite frustrating)

Got 65% nicotine in the collected vapour, which strongly bears out
DVap's initial cryogenic vapour test,
(must admit I was having trouble believing that 40% of the nic.
'dissapears' on the coil - had to see for myself)

My question is, is the titratable nicotine tertiary-amine nitrogen
converted to a primary or secondary amine form in the vapour
(i.e. un-ionisable, so it's not directly pH titrated/able),
or is it left behind on the coil in a solid form.

Would need some further somewhat more sophisticated, but well known,
quantitative chemistry methods to find out.

IIRC, I got 46%. Could indicate a recovery gradient that increases with concentration, or perhaps differing conditions such as atomizer temperature, etc. Still, 46% and 65% are in the same ballpark.

Suffice to say, there are quantifiable nicotine losses at the coil, but they are nowhere near as bad as some folks persist in believing.

[exogenesis]

You know, somehow I got it stuck in my mind that you detected 40% loss,
rather than 40% recovery.

Your post with the cryogenic trapping results:
Any interest in determining nicotine--by DVAP

Why does it take so long to find posts within a thread like this,
I think there's some sort of murphy's law in operation.

Anyway, yes I guess juice nic. concentration could be a major
parameter effecting actual loss percentage, it'll be one of the
'axes' in the matrix - when I'm sure I've got a 100% reliable
room-temp vapour collecting setup.

Thinking about how much nicotine was lost (for me), it comes
to 35% of 70 mg/ml x 5 ml = ~125 mg.

If that was stuck on the coil in a solid form (unlikely?),
it'd only be around twice the volume of the coil wire,
so would easily be hidden/mixed up with normal vaping 'coil-crud'.

If the lost nic. came out of the atty as some vapour-droplet-held form,
or literal gaseous form, as some heat-degraded or 'combustion product',
then it's in a really altered state with the heterocyclic ring bonds
broken to render the nitrogen into a non-titratable form.

Apparently a major initial heat decomposition of nicotine is beta-nicotyrine,
which then decomposes further.
pyridine (etc etc) are heat breakdown products.

nicotryne inhibits in-vivo metabolism of nicotine without increasing it's toxicity

Nicotyrine Inhibits in Vivo Metabolism of Nicotine Without Increasing Its Toxicity

i.e. it interferes with nicotine, wonder if there's anything relevant for us there,
or another red herring.

[Vaporer]

Interesting results exo.
I wonder if the increased nicotine concentration reacted with the O2 present, using it all, which resulted in the 14% greater recovery due to lack of available O2. That's assuming it's being oxidised.
If that were the case, then there would be a "break point" on efficiency of recovery.
Also, considering oxidation as the cause of initial loss, total airflow volume would be a large factor. That could account for a good % of just different equipment used for testing even among say 510's from Janty and Joye. Janty attys are 3.4ohm coils while Joye are 2.3ohms. Quite a bit hotter.
I am still curious if PG or VG is the better carrier and which is the faster adsorber into the system.

Considering all the factors in play your and DVaps % of recovery arent that far off each other.
Nice job!

[DVap]

Between Exo's result and my result, along with a truckload of empirical data such as the ability for e-liquid to give folks nicotine overdose symptoms at too high a level along with the observed "2.5X rule", anybody who continues to insist that e-cigs deliver only 10% of the nicotine is stuck on a seriously flawed study.

E-cigs deliver the nicotine: period.

[Vaporer]

Absolutely.
The break point I'm referring to would fall between 46 & 65%.
But a lot of diffs have to be considered so it may not really exist. IMHO.
Anyone believing the 10% for PV's are still lighting thier analogs by rubbing 2 sticks together.

[kinabaloo]

If nicotine loss was simple oxidation to cotinine it would still show up as nicotine in titration.

Might be a mix of solid and liquid vapors through decomp.

Experimental recovery can be nearly 50% higher than others, so well worth finding out why. Depends on the atty and the liquid (PG vs some VG).

~~~

On the face of it, the nicotyrine study suggest that if it were present, it could boost the psychoactive effects. In this case, higher temp attys such as the 510 could be losing more nic but gaining more effect? Interesting.

The primary nicotine oxidation products cotinine, myosmine, nicotine-cis-N-oxide, nicotine-trans-N-oxide and beta-nicotyrine.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2007/0186940.html

[exogenesis]

Possibly limited O2 could be the key <if> higher nic juices giver higher %age recovery Vaporer,
wil be interesting to see if there's a leveling-out break point when I get to testing differring strengths.

Should have said my initial test was with a DSE901 atty, at just over 4 V, with
a 'typical user' draw-through scenario (5 secs per vape, let rest 30 sec - repeatedly).
Different atty types (coil resistance) almost certainly will effect the nic. recovery.
That's also on the 'matrix plan', as is carrier type.

That '10% delivered' study always bemused me DVap, maybe it was just a question
of testing blood level too quickly after vaping, or many other possibilites
(not least of which is breakdown speed versus uptake speed in the body, so actually we might
not 'get' the full benefit of the nic. take in, but not down to 10% I'd have thought).

nicotyrine boosts the psychoactive effects Kin?, I though they were saying it inhibited nicotine.

I don't think nicotyrine clasifies as a TSNA

TSNA:


Nicotine:


nicotyrine:


I think all those breakdown products you listed would titrate 'as nicotine'
in the collected vapour, which is a bit of a pain.