The Nicotine Discrepancy - Page 3 - e-cigarette-forum.com • The place for electronic cigarette reviews, news and chat

TWISTED VICTOR · 10-21-2009, 03:13 AM

[quote=DVap;661943]I don't believe our bodies process nicotine any differently once absorbed due to the tobacco... unless something is modifying the uptake/elimination.

Could it be the pg or vg carrier is metabolize too quickly?

a2dcovert · 10-21-2009, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TropicalBob

Just to say I am the same. Totally agree with your statements here. I get cravings multiple times a day, while using the e-cigs, snus, dissolvables, Oliver Twist and about three pipes.

Replacing cigarettes after 30 a day for 50 years is not easy. It's more than hitting a specified nicotine blood level.

Thanks TB. I am going to keep going and try and beat this thing. I've come too far now to give up. Maybe one of us will find the secret ingredient. The answer is out there somewhere.

Kevin

DVap · 10-21-2009, 05:53 AM

Once absorbed, nicotine is nicotine. The bloodstream circulates it throughout the body. The blood/brain barrier does not care where the nicotine came from... it will buffer the nicotine to blood pH levels.

One of the realities that must be accepted with e-cigs is that they are not analogs. That "nicotine rush" is very possibly a carbon monoxide rush or a "nicotine plus a few thousand other chemicals" rush.

Perhaps the best way to simulate the rush is to fill your cart with your normal level, and at the start of a vaping session, drip a single drop of a higher level liquid (within reason!) onto the atty.

them0nk, would you settle for a chemist with a lab at his disposal?

I've looked at the discrepancy in some detail, and conducted experiments (see the nic determination thread, the discrepancy and testing of the discrepancy is discussed great detail there). My testing suggests that ~40% of the nicotine in a liquid makes it to the vapor accounting largely for the nicotine discrepancy. Depending on whether you talk to kin or myself, you'll hear that vaping gives you approx 30% to 40% of the overall effect of analogs. (The oft quoted figure of 10%, culled from some research report is nonsense, both my testing and empirical evidence I've gathered do not support it).

So far, greater than 4 out 5 five times, when someone tells me what kind of analogs (ultralight, light, or full) they smoked and how many per day, along with the mL/day they vape after vaping for a month or longer, I can closely guess the mg/mL of their liquid.

TaketheRedPill · 10-21-2009, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVap

Once absorbed, nicotine is nicotine. The bloodstream circulates it throughout the body. The blood/brain barrier does not care where the nicotine came from... it will buffer the nicotine to blood pH levels.....So far, greater than 4 out 5 five times, when someone tells me what kind of analogs (ultralight, light, or full) they smoked and how many per day, along with the mL/day they vape after vaping for a month or longer, I can closely guess the mg/mL of their liquid.

Guess my level: self-titrated to a firm 20cigs/day, TrueMenthol100's (ultra-lite, rated at 0.5mg/cig) put out half-way, religious with minifilters, for one to two years prior to ecig. Vape 2mls/day. my level is ____ ??

I'd also like to volunteer that perhaps the real-time blood nicotine is lower because, since the glycerine and/or PG has a low evaporation rate at body temp, it sticks around in the lung tissue longer, with the nicotine remaining dissolved in solution and slowly leeching out into the tissue as the PG/VG is absorbed and processed at a given constant rate. In other words, the residual PG/VG in the lung tissue acts like a biological slow-release nicotine patch. I can't decide if this would be a good thing or not but seems it could be a reasonable hypothesis and a reason people are able to switch to ecigs from analogs quickly. OTOH, I may be completely clueless

Hope this helps!

DVap · 10-21-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakeTheRedPill

Guess my level: self-titrated to a firm 20cigs/day, TrueMenthol100's (ultra-lite, rated at 0.5mg/cig) put out half-way, religious with minifilters, for one to two years prior to ecig. Vape 2mls/day. my level is ____ ??

The part I'm guessing a bit on is the halfway smoking (thanks for including that info, really helps me zero in). It's easier when folks just smoke the whole thing... no need to estimate. I was a 2/3 rd's smoker, and I've been figuring that cuts the nicotine in half compared to smoking to the butt. The tar/nicotine really gets concentrated down toward the butt, So I'll adjust yours to 35% or 0.175 mg/smoke. (this is easier when folks just smoke the whole thing).

You were a light smoker to start, so unless you've drastically re-titrated and decided to drop from your modest level and make the zero mg switch, I'll say 4.3 mg/mL (range of perhaps 3 - 5 mg/mL due to the half-smoked analog uncertainty).

TaketheRedPill · 10-22-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DVap

The part I'm guessing a bit on is the halfway smoking (thanks for including that info, really helps me zero in). It's easier when folks just smoke the whole thing... no need to estimate. I was a 2/3 rd's smoker, and I've been figuring that cuts the nicotine in half compared to smoking to the butt. The tar/nicotine really gets concentrated down toward the butt, So I'll adjust yours to 35% or 0.175 mg/smoke. (this is easier when folks just smoke the whole thing).

You were a light smoker to start, so unless you've drastically re-titrated and decided to drop from your modest level and make the zero mg switch, I'll say 4.3 mg/mL (range of perhaps 3 - 5 mg/mL due to the half-smoked analog uncertainty).

wow! You're right on target!

The 11mg I ordered with my kit made me immediately sick (shaky, racy pulse, sweaty, lightheaded, buzzy-headed) so that was cut by 3/4ths real quick! right down to 3mg, where I stayed pretty comfortably for 60 days. At first if I got a seriously bad craving I'd use a few drops of 6mg on the atomizer, but after the first week to 10 days I was able to just push thru them mostly.

And I am titrating. For the past two weeks I've been vaping more 0mg and less 3mg. I'd probably be at zero already except I luvs my cola and it's so hard to find factory-flavored 0mg. But now that Zero Cola is on the way, my target is to be vaping completely nic free by Turkey Day.

Thanks for guessing, and Well done!

kinabaloo · 10-26-2009, 01:02 AM

While issues such as acidic additives and lung versus oral absorption* are interesting, and even important, the main issue is the nicotine loss; not only because it is a waste, and requires effective e-liquids to be more concentrated (with associated dangers of accidental consumption and spillage), but because there might be toxins produced during the loss. And just maybe there might be ways to mitigate the loss or potential toxins once the mechanisms are better understood.

One experiment that will help increase our understanding is to run the atomiser in an oxygen-free, inert atmosphere; such as with nitrogen in place of air. Normally one would not expect to see signicant pyrolysis below 350-400C, so it will be interesting to see if there are any indications that this might be occurring, in which case the non-uniform temp of the coil, or the very rapid heating ramp profile, might be implicated.

* The difference would be more about rate than overall absorption.

kinabaloo · 10-26-2009, 01:03 AM

Although the following excerpt is from a discussion of (a somewhat unfavourable) comparison of lab pyrolysis (as a model) vs real-life, the real-life figures are very interesting. Analogs and vaping are quite different in many ways, but this seems to me a good rough guide as to the fate of the missing nic.

p.1108

40% nic unchanged (sounds familiar)
12% oxidised
11% degraded, with a very small amount of deposit production

Besides the interesting figures themselves, note that the decomp and oxidative products are nearly all volatile and so would be inhaled; much harmless stuff like CO2 and cotinine, but not necessarily all harmless; these oxidative and decompositional products might well number a dozen or more.

Not sure about the other ~35%; perhaps also oxidised but not to CO2 (partial oxidation, if you will: from intact cyclic species to fragments.

If so:

~40% unchanged (and arrives in body in a useful form)
~10% decomposed
~50% oxidised

Perhaps a similar spread when vaporising e-liquid. I think the figures for vaping will be similar. Hence I am expecting circa 10% loss with vaping in a nitrogen atmosphere; perhaps 5-10%, the exact numbers depending on liquid composition, battery power, 'air' throughput, etc.

For e-cigs these numbers might be more like:

~45% unchanged (and arrives in body in a useful form)
~5% decomposed
~50% oxidised

Most will just ignore that 55%, say it's unimportant. But the reality we need to face is that vaping is not as clean as many would like to believe. Even so, at least a 100 times less toxic than analogs. And the devil really is in the dose, so that 100 becomes like 1000 given that the body can handle very small amounts of toxins (we eat and breathe plenty everyday from other sources - not just pollution of modern times but environmental ones that life has lived with for millennia). Illness follows from toxic/pathogenic overload (combined with poor nutrition and stress).

happily · 10-26-2009, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a2dcovert

Thanks TB. I am going to keep going and try and beat this thing. I've come too far now to give up. Maybe one of us will find the secret ingredient. The answer is out there somewhere.

Kevin

The simplest solution would be vape low mg's for a week until your body adjusts down. (yes this would be quite stressful) and then up the dose. Now you're getting more than you're used to. I know it's not as easy as it sounds but it did work for me.

kinabaloo · 10-26-2009, 01:17 AM

Interestingly, citric acid (2-hydroxy 1,2,3 propane tri-carboxylic acid) is a major non-volatile organic acid in tobacco. It it completely non-volatile (will not vaporise); rather it decomposes to give some carbon monoxide at around 240C - a temp easily reached in the atty (at least on those occasions when the coil begins to dry.

Acetic acid (vinegar) on the other hand, would vaporise ok; however, it might not be a wise flavoring because the possibility that it could protonate some of the nic to a salt that may or may not be cleanly released on heating.

In general terms, we need the least possible additives (unless something was very safe and somehow increased nic yield; unlikely, but i wouldn't rule it out). If additive X led to less oxidative and decomp products, it would be worth considering; but this is rather unlikely.

So, if the nicotine is protonated to any extent by acidic additives, is the nic is released when the salts are heated. That is possible, though may well be partial. Carboxylic salts, in particular, can perhaps release the nic unharmed on heating. (Leaving aside for the moment what happens to the rest of each carboxylic salt mcolecule, the reconstituted acid).

But without knowing for sure that none of the nic loss is due to acidic additives, these additives are not a good idea, even the fully vapable ones.

Because droplets of liquid are pulled off the metal mesh and some may miss the coil and survive the fiull journey in the airstream (if small and light enough), some nicotine might arrive in the body this way (~1% ballpark).

~~~

Btw, I have a new hybrid design detailed here:
Another novel design for the e-cig / PV - the Hybrid 2 The Hybrid E-Cig 2.

10-21-2009, 05:53 AM	#23
DVap Supporting Chemist Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 508 Blog Entries: 13 Tweet this post!	Once absorbed, nicotine is nicotine. The bloodstream circulates it throughout the body. The blood/brain barrier does not care where the nicotine came from... it will buffer the nicotine to blood pH levels. One of the realities that must be accepted with e-cigs is that they are not analogs. That "nicotine rush" is very possibly a carbon monoxide rush or a "nicotine plus a few thousand other chemicals" rush. Perhaps the best way to simulate the rush is to fill your cart with your normal level, and at the start of a vaping session, drip a single drop of a higher level liquid (within reason!) onto the atty. them0nk, would you settle for a chemist with a lab at his disposal? I've looked at the discrepancy in some detail, and conducted experiments (see the nic determination thread, the discrepancy and testing of the discrepancy is discussed great detail there). My testing suggests that ~40% of the nicotine in a liquid makes it to the vapor accounting largely for the nicotine discrepancy. Depending on whether you talk to kin or myself, you'll hear that vaping gives you approx 30% to 40% of the overall effect of analogs. (The oft quoted figure of 10%, culled from some research report is nonsense, both my testing and empirical evidence I've gathered do not support it). So far, greater than 4 out 5 five times, when someone tells me what kind of analogs (ultralight, light, or full) they smoked and how many per day, along with the mL/day they vape after vaping for a month or longer, I can closely guess the mg/mL of their liquid. __________________ DVap's Law of Natural Selection: "When contemplating the handling of pure nicotine, the desire to do so is inversely proportional to one's ability to handle it safely." Last edited by DVap; 10-21-2009 at 05:58 AM.

10-26-2009, 01:02 AM	#27
kinabaloo ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,306	While issues such as acidic additives and lung versus oral absorption* are interesting, and even important, the main issue is the nicotine loss; not only because it is a waste, and requires effective e-liquids to be more concentrated (with associated dangers of accidental consumption and spillage), but because there might be toxins produced during the loss. And just maybe there might be ways to mitigate the loss or potential toxins once the mechanisms are better understood. One experiment that will help increase our understanding is to run the atomiser in an oxygen-free, inert atmosphere; such as with nitrogen in place of air. Normally one would not expect to see signicant pyrolysis below 350-400C, so it will be interesting to see if there are any indications that this might be occurring, in which case the non-uniform temp of the coil, or the very rapid heating ramp profile, might be implicated. * The difference would be more about rate than overall absorption. __________________ Link: Vaping Buzzz : Article Base & FAQ ... New Design Last edited by kinabaloo; 10-26-2009 at 01:39 AM.*

10-26-2009, 01:03 AM	#28
kinabaloo ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,306	Although the following excerpt is from a discussion of (a somewhat unfavourable) comparison of lab pyrolysis (as a model) vs real-life, the real-life figures are very interesting. Analogs and vaping are quite different in many ways, but this seems to me a good rough guide as to the fate of the missing nic. p.1108 40% nic unchanged (sounds familiar) 12% oxidised 11% degraded, with a very small amount of deposit production Besides the interesting figures themselves, note that the decomp and oxidative products are nearly all volatile and so would be inhaled; much harmless stuff like CO2 and cotinine, but not necessarily all harmless; these oxidative and decompositional products might well number a dozen or more. Not sure about the other ~35%; perhaps also oxidised but not to CO2 (partial oxidation, if you will: from intact cyclic species to fragments. If so: ~40% unchanged (and arrives in body in a useful form) ~10% decomposed ~50% oxidised Perhaps a similar spread when vaporising e-liquid. I think the figures for vaping will be similar. Hence I am expecting circa 10% loss with vaping in a nitrogen atmosphere; perhaps 5-10%, the exact numbers depending on liquid composition, battery power, 'air' throughput, etc. For e-cigs these numbers might be more like: ~45% unchanged (and arrives in body in a useful form) ~5% decomposed ~50% oxidised Most will just ignore that 55%, say it's unimportant. But the reality we need to face is that vaping is not as clean as many would like to believe. Even so, at least a 100 times less toxic than analogs. And the devil really is in the dose, so that 100 becomes like 1000 given that the body can handle very small amounts of toxins (we eat and breathe plenty everyday from other sources - not just pollution of modern times but environmental ones that life has lived with for millennia). Illness follows from toxic/pathogenic overload (combined with poor nutrition and stress). __________________ Link: Vaping Buzzz : Article Base & FAQ ... New Design Last edited by kinabaloo; 10-26-2009 at 02:00 AM.*

10-26-2009, 01:17 AM	#30
kinabaloo ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,306	Interestingly, citric acid (2-hydroxy 1,2,3 propane tri-carboxylic acid) is a major non-volatile organic acid in tobacco. It it completely non-volatile (will not vaporise); rather it decomposes to give some carbon monoxide at around 240C - a temp easily reached in the atty (at least on those occasions when the coil begins to dry. Acetic acid (vinegar) on the other hand, would vaporise ok; however, it might not be a wise flavoring because the possibility that it could protonate some of the nic to a salt that may or may not be cleanly released on heating. In general terms, we need the least possible additives (unless something was very safe and somehow increased nic yield; unlikely, but i wouldn't rule it out). If additive X led to less oxidative and decomp products, it would be worth considering; but this is rather unlikely. So, if the nicotine is protonated to any extent by acidic additives, is the nic is released when the salts are heated. That is possible, though may well be partial. Carboxylic salts, in particular, can perhaps release the nic unharmed on heating. (Leaving aside for the moment what happens to the rest of each carboxylic salt mcolecule, the reconstituted acid). But without knowing for sure that none of the nic loss is due to acidic additives, these additives are not a good idea, even the fully vapable ones. Because droplets of liquid are pulled off the metal mesh and some may miss the coil and survive the fiull journey in the airstream (if small and light enough), some nicotine might arrive in the body this way (~1% ballpark). ~~~ Btw, I have a new hybrid design detailed here: Another novel design for the e-cig / PV - the Hybrid 2 The Hybrid E-Cig 2. __________________ Link: Vaping Buzzz : Article Base & FAQ ... New Design Last edited by kinabaloo; 10-26-2009 at 01:51 AM.*

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10-21-2009, 03:13 AM	#21
TWISTED VICTOR Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Lucerne, IN Posts: 243	[quote=DVap;661943]I don't believe our bodies process nicotine any differently once absorbed due to the tobacco... unless something is modifying the uptake/elimination. Could it be the pg or vg carrier is metabolize too quickly?