cheap nicotine/pg

[MARK4567]

I work in a hazmat suit quite often, We have a lab at work with scrubbed pressurized air (to breath) and the whole lab runs negative pressure.We also go through what we call "the car wash" when leaving the lab. I mess with some pretty nasty stuff in there!! GB,MD,AC for example.
All I wanted to add to this is people DO NOT mess with 100% nicotine!! I can put it into perspective for you this way.. During WW2 the Nazi's used a chemical called "Zyklon B" to kill millions!!! PURE NICOTINE IS 3 TIMES MORE TOXIC!

[Tarzan]

Yes. The oral and dermal LD50s of nicotine are both about 50 mg/kg. Hydrogen cyanide as used in Zyklon-B by comparison is 100-200 mg/kg. That means an 80-kg person (slightly heavier than average for those of you who are non-metric) will have a 50% chance of dying if exposed to 4 g (4 ml) of nicotine via the skin. This is extrapolated from tests on animals of course, but it's safe to say that spilling even a small amount on your hand would be suicide. I don't know how sharply the curve bends around the LD50 point, but at some point above those 50 mg/kg you'll have 100% lethality. Also worth noting is that much less than a lethal dose can still cause a lapse in judgment, seizures or unconsciousness, which is highly undesirable when you're in the process of handling nicotine.

That being said, though, I'd hate for this sort of consideration to become an argument for banning electronic cigarettes. A LOT of substances become highly toxic in concentrated form. Caffeine, for example, is almost as toxic as hydrogen cyanide (except it is not easily absorbed through the skin, AFAIK). So anyway, it's just to underline that it's not so much the nicotine itself that presents this danger, as the fact that it's in concentrated form.

Also, while the numbers do show that nicotine is highly toxic, as soon as people find out that it's toxic, they often start to make up their own stories about just how toxic it is. I've heard that a single drop could kill 30 people, for example, but doing the arithmetic that's clearly off by a factor of 3000. Yet when public opinion and actual science conflict in this way, very often politicians choose to disregard the facts, which is why I think it's important to "keep ones balance" when talking about drugs, and especially my beloved nicotine.

[Storm]

Yes. The oral and dermal LD50s of nicotine are both about 50 mg/kg. Hydrogen cyanide as used in Zyklon-B by comparison is 100-200 mg/kg. That means an 80-kg person (slightly heavier than average for those of you who are non-metric) will have a 50% chance of dying if exposed to 4 g (4 ml) of nicotine via the skin.

Careful with your numbers. Yes, in rats the LD50 is ~50 mg/kg. In humans, it is around 50mg per human. Huge difference.

"The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 40–60 mg (0.5-1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans."

Sorry had to remove links. I guess I am too much of a newbie still.

[Tarzan]

Of course. I was only aiming for the approximate order of magnitude, really, and the comparison to Zyklon-B, the only two things that an LD50 measure is good for, anyway.

Just to be a bit anal, though , an LD50(rat) of 50 mg/kg does not mean that 1 mg/kg couldn't kill a rat, and likewise one example of what can be a lethal dose for a human isn't LD50. I'm not sure the data exists to determine nicotine's LD50 for humans. The experiments required would be rather morbid..

[Eclectic_Current]

Hi All,

The discussion so far overlooks one important point. Mixing pure Nic with PG is not at all a guarantee that it will stay mixed. What is the solubility of Nic in PG ? Your mixture could seperate like oil and water and lead to BIG trouble.

Nic is, however, extremely soluble (miscible) in water which is probably why water is found in the recipe for cartridge mixtures of the original chinese formulations. You can find the exact recipes of all cartridge strengths on page 22 of the New Zealand Health research study here: (can'tpost links so): wwwDOThealthnzDOTcoDOTnz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08DOTpdf

Just forget about being able to DIY anything with pure Nic.

Heres my idea which exploits the solubility of Nic in water to much more safely make DIY liquid of roughly any desired strength.

Step 1: get a prescription for Nicotrol NRT inhaler Kit which contains around 160 cartridges EACH of which contains 10mg of pure Nic (and inactive components of the product are menthol and a porous plug which are pharmacologically inactive-) of which 4mg is delivered when the user inhales according to their instructions.
See paragraph 1 at: wwwDOTrxlistDOTcom/nicotrol-drugDOThtm

Step2: Cut a cartridge open and wash the inside with say 40 ml (=40 mg weight) of warm distilled water which will hopefully disolve all 10 mg of availble Nic therein to yield 40 ml of solution at 25% Nic concentration ( by weight, assuming 100% dissolution).
I have not yet looked into the solubility in water of the menthol this cartridge also contains but you might have no choice but to end up with mint flavor eliquid if the menthol is also water soluble.

Step3: Mix this 40ml(25%) with say 40 ml of pure PHARMACY or FOOD GRADE PG and you will then have 80ml of roughly 12% (by weight) eLiquid which was manufactured MUCH more safely than all suggestions so far posted here -it seems to me.

You could of increase the Nic concentration by using more than 1 of these cartridges but I do not know what the limit of solubility is for a given quantity of water is.

Maybe someone out there with more chemistry expertise can pick up the ball from here on this idea and fine tune a procedural recipe for us based on these cartridges as that is about the limit of what i can offer as my background is physics not chemistry. ATTEMPT THIS ONLY AT YOUR OWN RISK !

If I am unable ( being in Canada ) to somehow obtain properly manufactured liquids or cartridges I will eventually be trying this approach for myself and if so, i will report the outcome here. I am pretty sure the reasoning and calculations are correct but would appreciate feedback from a Chem guru regarding this idea.

[Nick O'Teen]

sounds good, and I think your math makes sense (but I ain't a chem guru! ) I guess if they ban it we'll have to figure out something like this, but I think I'd go back to combusting if the only choice was menthol! Do you know if it's possible to get a suitable non-menthol NRT source to work with?

[Tarzan]

Mind the units . 1 ml of water is 1 g = 1000 mg. To get a 1% e-liquid you'd need one 10 mg cart to 1 ml of water. So to get 80 ml of 12% liquid you'd need 960 cartridges.

It could work, though, except I'm not too crazy about menthol . How much do the cartridges cost? A normal 30 ml/36 mg bottle should be equivalent to 100 or so carts.

[Eclectic_Current]

Nick - No idea regarding non menthol NRT inhaled products.

Tarzan- Damn, you're right. 1 ml is = 1g since: 1 Liter(1000 ml)= 1KG( 1000g ) so this idea bites the dust because the 160 cart NRT kit is very pricey -costs a couple of hundred dollars i think since it's a 12 week program. oh well, never mind THANKS for the correction !

[Eclectic_Current]

hmm, i wonder if soaking high strength patches would dissolve only Nic ... have to start researching the patents on those to see what they are made of to see if they contain anything else (other than Nic) which is water soluble and also just how much Nic might be harvestable.

[Tarzan]

And thanks for the link to the Health NZ study. It's an interesting read, and a very encouraging conclusion:

Ruyan® e-cigarette is designed to be a safe alternative to smoking. The various test results confirm this is the case. It is very safe relative to cigarettes, and also safe in absolute terms on all measurements we have applied.