House of Hybrids featuring the Zenesis PV

[krnxguhj33]

Welcome back from banishment Zen~ and congrats on the approval from eCommerce!! :]

Ripple: Sorry that some low-life took your gifts. The audacity of some people. D:

K-man: Nice touch on the maple leaf.

Ob and Rat: I commend your taking leadership of the forum in Zen~'s twenty-four hour leave of absence.

Gonna nap for a few hours and start studying. Obstetrics test tomorrow.. TT_TT

[DirtyHarry]

[QUOTE=Trench;6118146]

ketchup!! .

Catsup is fine. Just don't let Dirty Harry catch you putting it on no hotdog!

What's funny is that, despite my ECF moniker, I actually *like* catsup on hot dogs. About the only thing I like it on but fries and... mixed with judicious amounts of hot sauce... eggs.

-Inspector Callihan

[tybin]

mustard on fries

[Katz123]

Just a thought...
What about putting a new rule on the "Conditions of Use" page.
All resales are subject to approval by Zen~.

[Zen~]

I spoke a lot for someone who can "speak for themselves" sorry about that.

I also just realized how hard that last post is to read. sorry I was typing frantically.

I think you summed it up pretty well.

But I would like to add a bit to it...

When I created the Zenesis PV I had a goal to sell the Standard for 200 bucks... and the first five or six did... These were all hand made by me in my shop... When I calculated my time, I wasn't making very much per hour... not a lot of meat on the bone at 200 bucks.

So I set forth to put an extra 25 bucks in my pocket and raised the price to 225, and introduced the mini at 195... I really wanted a PV to be at that 200 dollar price point... that's why the mini was introduced... The problem is, the mini costs about 3 bucks less to make than the standard. The additional savings came from a less expensive case, and a smaller profit margin.

Then the demand went through the roof, and I realized I couldn't possibly make them all myself... I found a machine shop.

And the price remained the same.

What people do NOT realize is the expense of getting these things into a shop. Tooling, fixtures, CAD, Programming... it all adds up... The FIRST run of 200 PVs cost me WAYYYY more than I sold them for when you factor in the tooling and incidentals, and on an endeavor such as this, there's no way of knowing if there will even BE a second run... all the initial costs are "at risk".

Feb and March PVs generated just shy of 50,000 in sales... and the machine shop bill was about 39,000 PLUS another 10,000 was spent on the small parts, cases, kanthal, wicks etc. So that's 49K roughly against 50K in sales...

The switch problem set me back another couple thousand because I was in a rush... I still haven't got all of that settled...

OH yes... tanks that were not up to snuff didn't help either.

Paypal and Square fees, plus other expenses not including postage ate up roughly 4%... that's about 2K.

I earned NOTHING on the first two months of sales... In fact I LOST more money in those two months than some people in this thread MAKE in two months.

But without risk... there is no reward, right?

So the shops finally get the Z-attys ready, and the next 200 PVs are ready to assemble too...

The parts cost money... lots and lots of money. So this time the machine shops get even MORE money... after all, there's 375 Z-attys to pay for and 25 Titanium Standards... and WOW this bill will pay for a SERIOUSLY NICE ITALIAN SPORTS CAR...

And I pay it...

And then eCommerce gets shut down...

For a month...

The bottom line is at this point there is no bottom line... I'm ALL IN, and it will be a long haul digging out, and doggonit... it's WORTH it!

I'm seeing aspects that are unique to my design showing up in other peoples work now. It's flattering, even if it is unethical. No biggie... I created the Zenesis... I feel good about it.

I'm committed to 1000 stainless PVs this year... it was foolish to do Titanium and Aluminum and dilute my own efforts... but I wanted to do MORE... no risk... no reward!

So think about my mindset for a moment.

This is kinda scary, isn't it? Can people see what's on the line? Can people see why I might be on edge?

So... then we get a guy, that for NO other reason than being at the right place at the right time... sells one of the PVs I built... at my risk... with my precious time... with MY money... they up and sell it for a hundred bucks more than they sell for.

I wish I could make a hundred bucks that easily.

WE built a community here... all of us... WE created the value of the brand... All of us... And being a part of this community has to stand for something.

There are literally DOZENS of people in this community that don't have a device yet... and some guy buys one... goes outside the community and sells it ... no... SCALPS it for 100 bucks over fair market value. So WHAT if he traded it, by the way... the trade was based on his asking price and negotiated from there.

So far people that have sold their PVs have made more money than I have.

I value this community.

But the very fabric of this group is threatened by this behavior.

So... in the spirit of full disclosure... The eCommerce thing scared me... a lot.

Having parts without an ability to sell them... well... that's the scariest thing on earth at the moment. So if I've been on edge, testy, or even rude... that's why.

But I'm not backing down from the scalping issue.

So here's what I consider to be scalping:

1) If a person sells their Zenesis PV at a price over the current retail price... it's scalping.

2)If a person buys a PV for 250.00 plus 6 bucks shipping and they sell it for 256 PLUS SHIPPING to the next person, it's scalping.

3) If a person pays 250 plus shipping for a PV, and they sell it for 250 NOT INCLUDING THE CASE AND REMAINING ACCESSORIES... It's scalping.

The following is NOT scalping:

1) A person sells a Discontinued, a BAM or a LIMITED for above what they paid... it is NOT scalping. It is selling a PV that is no longer available at the price the market will bear.

2) A person sells a current production PV for the price they originally paid for it, less original shipping.

3) A person sells a current production PV... PLUS ADDITIONAL ACCESSORIES WITH REAL VALUE for a price above the current retail value, but not exceeding the combined real retail value.

So that's what I consider the reality of this all.

Thanks for your undertsanding and compassion for my situation.

I really appreciate it.

[Katz123]

Was it something I said? Where did everyone go? It has been almost 1/2 hour and nobody said anything.

Edit: Never mind. Zen~ just showed up and blew away all my tumbleweeds.

[eastman]

Wow. That was an amazing post.

I think you summed it up pretty well.

But I would like to add a bit to it...

When I created the Zenesis PV I had a goal to sell the Standard for 200 bucks... and the first five or six did... These were all hand made by me in my shop... When I calculated my time, I wasn't making very much per hour... not a lot of meat on the bone at 200 bucks.

So I set forth to put an extra 25 bucks in my pocket and raised the price to 225, and introduced the mini at 195... I really wanted a PV to be at that 200 dollar price point... that's why the mini was introduced... The problem is, the mini costs about 3 bucks less to make than the standard. The additional savings came from a less expensive case, and a smaller profit margin.

Then the demand went through the roof, and I realized I couldn't possibly make them all myself... I found a machine shop.

And the price remained the same.

What people do NOT realize is the expense of getting these things into a shop. Tooling, fixtures, CAD, Programming... it all adds up... The FIRST run of 200 PVs cost me WAYYYY more than I sold them for when you factor in the tooling and incidentals, and on an endeavor such as this, there's no way of knowing if there will even BE a second run... all the initial costs are "at risk".

Feb and March PVs generated just shy of 50,000 in sales... and the machine shop bill was about 39,000 PLUS another 10,000 was spent on the small parts, cases, kanthal, wicks etc. So that's 49K roughly against 50K in sales...

The switch problem set me back another couple thousand because I was in a rush... I still haven't got all of that settled...

OH yes... tanks that were not up to snuff didn't help either.

Paypal and Square fees, plus other expenses not including postage ate up roughly 4%... that's about 2K.

I earned NOTHING on the first two months of sales... In fact I LOST more money in those two months than some people in this thread MAKE in two months.

But without risk... there is no reward, right?

So the shops finally get the Z-attys ready, and the next 200 PVs are ready to assemble too...

The parts cost money... lots and lots of money. So this time the machine shops get even MORE money... after all, there's 375 Z-attys to pay for and 25 Titanium Standards... and WOW this bill will pay for a SERIOUSLY NICE ITALIAN SPORTS CAR...

And I pay it...

And then eCommerce gets shut down...

For a month...

The bottom line is at this point there is no bottom line... I'm ALL IN, and it will be a long haul digging out, and doggonit... it's WORTH it!

I'm seeing aspects that are unique to my design showing up in other peoples work now. It's flattering, even if it is unethical. No biggie... I created the Zenesis... I feel good about it.

I'm committed to 1000 stainless PVs this year... it was foolish to do Titanium and Aluminum and dilute my own efforts... but I wanted to do MORE... no risk... no reward!

So think about my mindset for a moment.

This is kinda scary, isn't it? Can people see what's on the line? Can people see why I might be on edge?

So... then we get a guy, that for NO other reason than being at the right place at the right time... sells one of the PVs I built... at my risk... with my precious time... with MY money... they up and sell it for a hundred bucks more than they sell for.

I wish I could make a hundred bucks that easily.

WE built a community here... all of us... WE created the value of the brand... All of us... And being a part of this community has to stand for something.

There are literally DOZENS of people in this community that don't have a device yet... and some guy buys one... goes outside the community and sells it ... no... SCALPS it for 100 bucks over fair market value. So WHAT if he traded it, by the way... the trade was based on his asking price and negotiated from there.

So far people that have sold their PVs have made more money than I have.

I value this community.

But the very fabric of this group is threatened by this behavior.

So... in the spirit of full disclosure... The eCommerce thing scared me... a lot.

Having parts without an ability to sell them... well... that's the scariest thing on earth at the moment. So if I've been on edge, testy, or even rude... that's why.

But I'm not backing down from the scalping issue.

So here's what I consider to be scalping:

1) If a person sells their Zenesis PV at a price over the current retail price... it's scalping.

2)If a person buys a PV for 250.00 plus 6 bucks shipping and they sell it for 256 PLUS SHIPPING to the next person, it's scalping.

3) If a person pays 250 plus shipping for a PV, and they sell it for 250 NOT INCLUDING THE CASE AND REMAINING ACCESSORIES... It's scalping.

The following is NOT scalping:

1) A person sells a Discontinued, a BAM or a LIMITED for above what they paid... it is NOT scalping. It is selling a PV that is no longer available at the price the market will bear.

2) A person sells a current production PV for the price they originally paid for it, less original shipping.

3) A person sells a current production PV... PLUS ADDITIONAL ACCESSORIES WITH REAL VALUE for a price above the current retail value, but not exceeding the combined real retail value.

So that's what I consider the reality of this all.

Thanks for your undertsanding and compassion for my situation.

I really appreciate it.

[milly]

The bottom line is at this point there is no bottom line... I'm ALL IN, and it will be a long haul digging out, and doggonit... it's WORTH it!

I value this community.

Pretty much enough said and WELL DONE!

[readmermaid]

And in the end, there isn't enough community to keep you from being alone with all this.

Stay the course, Zen~, not for us, for you.

[DirtyHarry]

Hey, ~Zen...

I, for one, completely understand where you are coming from and completely agree; especially in this new venue - new community even - of vaping. I read about the pledge the first buyers made, and thought it was an awesome idea, and will happily hold to it if/when I get a ~zen device. You are both being more than fair regarding out-of-production units and accessory inclusion, and also fostering a stronger sense of community, which can only be a good thing.

WRT your production issues, I also completely understand - perhaps even more so than you did when you got into it; not sure of your background in things like this - but I have some 15 years of production planning under my belt (the remaining 15-odd years on my resume are in IT; no I am not really a cop - it's a call-back to my on-line user name from the late '80s ), and I learned early on to take all this into consideration. You are still in the "start-up" costs phase of things, but one thing this forum shows is that there is GREAT pent-up demand out there. And, for any given design, once the tooling is done it's DONE - and increased quantity of sales leads to decreased supplier prices per unit.

In short, you WILL get there, and probably faster than you imagined. Carry on, and build on - we are here waiting.

- Insp. 2211