Church?

[Blue Knight Max]

I normally stay out of religious discussions, but that is one thing that has bothered me ever since hearing it as a small child (the people have souls but animals dont, bit). Animals show affection, dislike, anger, other emotions, and intelligence all the time.

One day my cat and I got into a battle of wills. (I dont remember what it was over). He got mad at me, and stormed out of the kitchen and down the hallway. I followed, peering around the corners to watch him. He went into the bathroom and stood next to some dirty clothes of mine, looking at the clothing with a P.O'd look on his face and then turning to the litter box with a "but I really should..." look on his face. Bath and forth he looked, debating about what to do. After a bit I made my presence known by stepping into the doorway and saying nicely to him "whatcha doing?" He then walked over to his litterbox to urinate in it. And, I swear he even sighed with resignation before doing so.

Like a child, he was mad and really wanted to punish me for not getting his way, but felt torn because he knew it would be wrong. Intelligent? Yes. Able to make a decision between right and wrong? Yes. Does that mean he has a soul? I dont know, but the notion shouldnt be so readily dismissed imho.

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled program

Don't get me wrong, I'm a animal lover also. I got 3 dogs, 1 parrot, 4 parakeet birds and a turtle!!

Our pets do have character and we love and adore them. You should see the personalities my pets have. It will amaze you. However, their ancestory goes way back to the time where they lived in the wild and like all wild animals do today, live on natural instinct. Domesticated animals are taught what is right and wrong in the homes they live in and yes do become members of our families. It would be very hard to believe that they do not have a soul.

Unfortunatly, according to my beliefs, man has domain over all animals and there is a reason for that. There is a reason why we are the most intellictual of all beings on earth. (Opinions may differ here!) I believe that it is because we have a soul.

This topic can be debated for decades, but the truth of the matter is that there is no proof that animals do or don't have souls. I can only go by my faith and faith comes by hearing and reading the word of God from the Bible. The Bible (to the best of my knowledge) makes no mention of animals having souls or even going to the kingdom of heaven.

Like I said, this topic can be a never ending discussion and it makes no sense to continue it.

However, I do hope and pray that my pets, that I love so much, do join me when that day comes.

Now I'm bouncing...

See ya everybody.

[marcb70]

Max you were referring to me when you were talking about the church being made by man. I choose not to go to church because I became apathetic about my Christianity, not because of it being made by man. I was stating that it is made by man and therefore fallible and that some of the things said by the "church" are not right(i.e. god hates fags), and are not the essence of Jesus' teachings. I still think church is a good thing but, there are those that misrepresent Christianity and give it a bad name, so those who aren't Christians should know that hating people is not what it is about.

[Vapor Pete]

Max you were referring to me when you were talking about the church being made by man. I choose not to go to church because I became apathetic about my Christianity, not because of it being made by man. I was stating that it is made by man and therefore fallible and that some of the things said by the "church" are not right(i.e. god hates fags), and are not the essence of Jesus' teachings. I still think church is a good thing but, there are those that misrepresent Christianity and give it a bad name, so those who aren't Christians should know that hating people is not what it is about.

Marc, As much as you have disdain for me... I almost completely agree with what you've said. I will only add that from my perspective, if church is man made so is the book the church wants you to read. (especially when men voted on what to include in said book) Which makes it ALL fallible.
My anger with the likes of the Baptists you mentioned, who campaign at funerals and abortion clinics with signs graphically depicting aborted fetus's is only proof of the twisting one can do to the bible in order to make it fit ones own immoral, reprehensible, disgusting, disillusioned world views. Which, in addition, is another testament to its fallibilty.
My best,
-VP

[Vapor Pete]

As max has stated, this topic can be debated until the sun collides with the earth. I only brought it up to Max to say it is subject to objection. And clearly it is. But some have seemed to miss my example. I am not talking about ones dogs and cats or other household pets (other than my mention of people seeing their ghosts).
I mentioned animals such as any of the Great Apes, who make DESCISIONS on a daily basis. What to eat, who to mate with, what TOOLS to use to get food, what clan to join etc. Elephants who mourn their dead, Lions who adopt baby gazells in the absence of their own young (deciding that a meal item is now a fill in for a dead cub is completely putting aside its own prey drive and instinct). These are the things I am speaking of.
And although an animals soul is not provable, neither is mans. Max said he believes man has dominion over all animals... I beg to differ with that. I can name dozens of animals that should anyone tread into its territory... would OWN any man.
My best,
-VP

Don't get me wrong, I'm a animal lover also. I got 3 dogs, 1 parrot, 4 parakeet birds and a turtle!!

Our pets do have character and we love and adore them. You should see the personalities my pets have. It will amaze you. However, their ancestory goes way back to the time where they lived in the wild and like all wild animals do today, live on natural instinct. Domesticated animals are taught what is right and wrong in the homes they live in and yes do become members of our families. It would be very hard to believe that they do not have a soul.

Unfortunatly, according to my beliefs, man has domain over all animals and there is a reason for that. There is a reason why we are the most intellictual of all beings on earth. (Opinions may differ here!) I believe that it is because we have a soul.

This topic can be debated for decades, but the truth of the matter is that there is no proof that animals do or don't have souls. I can only go by my faith and faith comes by hearing and reading the word of God from the Bible. The Bible (to the best of my knowledge) makes no mention of animals having souls or even going to the kingdom of heaven.

Like I said, this topic can be a never ending discussion and it makes no sense to continue it.

However, I do hope and pray that my pets, that I love so much, do join me when that day comes.

Now I'm bouncing...

See ya everybody.

[Vapor Pete]

The Cambrian explosion was a short period of time where most of today's primates appeared suddenly with no fossils found that can support macroevolution. Their are no links from these species to previously existing species, and the time span is short. Their are very good fossil records from this time frame, shortly before, and shortly after. This is unexplainable without accepting intervention.

Here ya go kwiq... do I still need to accept "intervention"

?Missing link? likely to stir debate - LiveScience- msnbc.com

My best,
-VP

[Vapor Pete]

Irreducible Complexity as suggested by Darwin and supported by science tends to refute the theroy of evolution and rather promotes the concept of Intelligent Design.

With all due respect wanderlust, it has been through my findings that there is no theory refuting anything Darwin has suggested that any scientist will agree with. Likewise, I.D. is not a science, but a rebranded name for Creationism pushed by the christian right as a way to quietly slip the religious alternative into mainstream public schools.
So my point is that no scientist is going to accept a refutation of a scientific theory based on non-scientific thoughts. If he does, he probably is a christian scientist (which is contradiction in terms) and has an agenda. And Dawkins (a scientist) can help explain I.C. in a way that it can work, and has been shown to work, making the argument null and void.
My best,
-VP

[paulsostereo]

i did just a few hours ago HA

i was kind enough to do it in the foyer - i'm actually the drummer for a fairly large church - i usually bend over and vape in between songs LOL dont tell my worship leader.