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    Quote Originally Posted by Myk View Post
    The polls have between 60%-70% of that public eye in favor of us using ecigs. Besides the stuff you should've looked into before making such a claim (follow the money covered by p.opus) that alone renders your claims void because you base it all on majority.
    Gosh darn it, the public likes us not smoking.
    Exactly! Which explains why the ANTZ have renewed the SHS & THS fear mongering & began the SHV & THV campaign. They are so desperate, it's ridiculous. All in the name of money. Appalling is a mild description for them, but I'll use it.
    Last edited by Uma; 02-21-2014 at 11:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.opus View Post
    Our politicians are not doing "the voters will" because the public is outraged over vaping. There is no public "outcry" against vaping. That is an irrational fear that many vapers hold to and justifies their self righteous anger when they see someone else do it...."they'll ruin it for everyone" is the common clarion cry.

    No, the overwhelming evidence is that the politicians and policy makers are responding to $$$$. When the Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement was done in 1998. Big Tobacco agreed to pay 10 BILLION dollars to states as part of the settlement in perpetuity. This money is SUPPOSED to be used for public health initiatives and to prevent tobacco use in kids.

    The idea was keep kids from smoking and let existing smokers die out. States soon realized that if there were no new smokers, then their settlement funds would dry up. After all, the settlement is based on percentage of sales. So a majority of states have done NOTHING to prevent youth smoking with the exception of public service announcements and the creation of organizations of groups like Tobacco Free Kids. Also, the states continue to pass groundless legislation that restricts WHERE you can smoke, but not where you can buy them. This is why you don't see State run Tobacco stores. The idea is keep them readily accessible, so that you can continue to collect your settlement funds.

    Now comes e-cigs, which have grown into a 1 Billion dollar industry and our elected officials are now looking at a product that not only negatively impacts CURRENT tobacco sales, but has the potential to negatively impact future tobacco sales. Here is a product that could actually fulfill the goals set out by the MSA. Here is a product that actually could replace smoking, AND effectively shut out 46 states of roughly 10 Billion dollars a year.

    And SHOCK...Youth smokers are turning to e-cigs as well. OH OH....10 BILLION Dollars per year to the 46 member states is now in jeopardy... AND don't think Big Tobacco isn't reminding states of this as well. If we don't sell our product, you don't get your money. So now we hear the "Save The Children" cry regarding e-cigs.....

    So now the states are pressuring their local communities to ban e-cigs wherever smoking is banned and telling local communities if they don't pass these restrictions, they don't get a share of the Tobacco money because they are "non compliant". Meanwhile, States are attempting to ban internet sales, because a large part of the Billion dollar industry is based on internet sales.

    As a result, towns and states are trying to kill the industry that can effectively cost them 10 Billion dollars a year alone in settlement money, not to mention the tobacco tax they receive based on sales, and vapers think that public vaping is the reason.....Wake up!!!

    Follow the money.

    Well said!! This should be pinned for all to see. Clear cut and dry.

    There are so many great posts in this thread, by all of you, and I hope you realize how appreciative of you I/we are. You all rock!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myk View Post
    What????????????????????????????????????????????

    I'll let everyone else judge whether that is the voice of an extremist or not.
    Thank you! That's much easier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by p.opus View Post
    ...

    Zoid....If you have it, Give me link to the representatives who are looking to ban internet sales of e-cigs in Cali. Most of my vape supplies are shipped from there. I definitely have skin in that game, and let me know what else you think we need to do. I need to let the California reps that they are affecting many the livelihood of many local California businesses that pay California taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by zoiDman View Post
    Here is some Contact Information for Roger Dickinson, D-Sacramento.

    Roger Dickinson, California State Senate
    Democratic Members - Assembly Democratic Caucus - California State Assembly - Democratic Caucus
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    I'll be most curious how far talk will get us with people who are clearly in the back pocket of the Tobacco Control movement.

    And yes, I did write emails to California state reps on this issue.

    I just see California (state government) as entirely corrupt on this issue and feel minds are already made up. Kinda like the issue that is focus of this thread. Once the anti message has been allowed to settle in and be deemed 'most rational way to approach the discussion,' I currently know of no way around that, other than advocating for civil disobedience / demonstration. With the California bill, it would mean openly advocating for creation of a black market and not shying away from that discussion, even a little bit.

    To think we live in a day and age where adult verification of purchases online is too challenging is downright preposterous. Akin to claiming we are living in a point in history when it is too challenging to ventilate enclosed spaces where vapor is in the air. Relatively harmless vapor, at that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jman8 View Post
    Curious where you are getting this information from, as you seem to be suggesting this is true for majority of the public. I'm thinking you are guessing at this rather than operating from some data, but even as a guess, it is worth addressing.

    With this one, I think it is a fair prejudice for the public to have. But is equally fair to suggest this is true with everything in public, i.e. medical inhalers, people's drinks carried into public, what people exhale normally into the air, people's BO, and umpteen other items I could name. Again, I am saying it is equally fair to what this point is making. Whether or not it is equally accurate is what my first sentence was getting at.

    But fact is, if we were either called out or person did a little homework on their own, they would be able to determine what it is we are likely carrying around in our gadgets, and could then come from informed position rather than jump to paranoid conclusion that because they are ignorant of what's in it, it means automatically that it might be harmful. As this thread brought up exhaled air as being on par with exhaled vapor, I truly believe that is equal in terms of this point. And as was said earlier in the thread, even while breathing is a necessary function, all persons currently in a public situation could wear a mouth filter to overcome the possible (extreme) danger that comes from exhaled air. But as many choose not to, I think we can safely assume for purposes of this discussion, that overwhelming majority of public isn't as reactionary to this type of logic as we might wish to argue. Especially if I or any vaper considers experiences from either vaping in public and getting into discussion with strangers, or from vaping around friends/family who will be candid with us about the whole vaping experience from a non vapers perspective.



    Have never heard anyone in public say this, never heard anyone on a vaping forum say they've encountered this, nor could I imagine someone saying this and leaving the conversation there. But even if they did, or thought this and chose to act on it in some sort of action against vapers, I would consider it as ignorance that is due correction, or paranoia that deserves to fester as long as that person is unwilling to overcome this sort of prejudice.



    The FDA/Government has also not told Joe Public that it's safe to Joe's family or Joe to breath in the air that people exhale. What are we going to do?



    I've always thought secondhand was what came from one's lungs upon exhale. Therefore, I've always thought it was about what people are exhaling after they have inhaled it, even when this has to do with those things that have a lit burning cherry on them. Thus secondhand would technically apply to the CO-2 that all humans exhale into the air. I heard humans can't breath in CO-2 or it will harm them. I (facetiously) wonder how humans are permitted to exhale CO-2 into the air, when other humans are around? Would seem like there'd be laws against that, as the fear alone would be reason enough to assure everyone, regardless of age, is wearing a mouth filter. Unless, maybe, the amount of CO-2 from secondhand wouldn't be harmful to all bystanders in the vicinity regardless of their distance to the person breathing that out into the air? You think? Hmmm, maybe this would apply to other things that are exhaled? I wonder how in this age, the information age, we could possibly find these sort of things out?



    Good, more demonstrations are needed to overcome this notion that vapor is smoke. One would think if vapers and smokers are side by side, this will only confuse the uninformed public, so as of this date, it is mandatory that vapers and smokers do not hang together when exhaling their substances. Even if both vapers and smokers are clear on the distinction, it is plausible others are not, and to help make it clear for everyone, then these two must never ever again be mixed in together as that would just confuse the person who doesn't know, is not sure of the distinction. If / when this is firmly in place, then the distinction could be even more clear than it already is to say all my non-smoking, non-vaping friends who took less than 30 seconds from the first time I vaped in front of them to distinguish between the two, and who have repeatedly told me since then that in their experience, from their perspective, the two are nothing like each other based on appearance of what is in my mouth or what they can smell.



    So again, all vapers reading this, do not vape in public around smokers ever, as it is likely you are shaping the public's eye to possibly think they are the same thing. Never again do this. If you think it is necessary, please explain why and consider context of this discussion in your rationale.

    Also realize that we have people amongst us who may have no idea what vaping or vapor is as they have never been in a cold weather climate and seen vapor coming out of people's mouths. So, it is important to demonstrate this and be prepared, just a little bit, to explain how vapor works. Chances are they won't even ask you, but if they do, just be prepared to do some educating for those who will assume it must be smoke because it kinda looks like smoke, even while it doesn't smell anything like smoke. As not everyone has time or access to get this information online, it behooves the vaping community to be out in public vaping and prepared to talk about. Probably at this time, it would be best to treat government as working against the open and honest desire for reasonable education on vaping for the curious public. Meaning, some may even go as far as saying it is banned in a place, but that can't be reason to not educate, thru demonstration. Find out the reason for the ban. If it is because it looks like smoke and smoking is not allowed here, then you know your education is needed, and demonstration would be helpful. If it is because no one can possibly know what's in an eCig, then while demonstrating the relative harmlessness of your eCig/vaporizer, be sure to educate people on this relatively new subject called "science" and how science has studied and been able to determine what is in these things, as if it isn't some guarded secret that only a privileged few could possibly ever learn about.



    Given what you've put forth and my response, I think it is mandatory for the woman in OP to vape in public, especially at this time. Why a fellow vaper would put that action down seems odd, but is what it is.
    Wonderful
    You said that very well indeed.

    ---------

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-dub View Post
    They may agree with your logic in this specific case, or maybe in all cases similar. If an actual discussion could occur without all the... sideshow activity, it probably would have been parsed out 20 pages ago.
    I fully agree.

    {MODERATED}
    Last edited by sonicdsl; 02-22-2014 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Enough
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoiDman View Post
    BTW – If would Nice to see Some of the “Passion” that people poses here directed towards something that has more Far Reaching Effects on the Vaping Community as a Whole. Perhaps a Thread like this…

    ***California Assembly bill to BAN SHIPMENT OF E CIGARETTES TO ANYONE IN CALIFORNIA***

    Instead of Relying on a Very Small Group of Dedicated Individuals to help Spread the Message.
    They do, sweetpea, they do.
    I am one.
    Currently involved in a vaping conflict in Europe. And putting very much time, passion and energy into fighting to be allowed to (!) embrace a healthier choice to smoking tobacco.

    I never thought that people would have to fight to be allowed to (!) make a healthier choice.
    Only because their healthier choice does not put Big Money into the coffers of Big Industry.
    Only because their healthier choice does not pay bribes to those with deep pockets.

    By the way, what are you doing to promote the interests of vapers?
    Instead of putting so much time and energy into discouraging vapers and spreading anti-vaping propaganda - in a vapers forum, no less.

    What are you doing to promote the interests of vapers, Zoidman?
    Or was your posting just another red herring, to distract from the subject at hand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC2 View Post
    It always amazes me when I see how polarized these threads become.

    It seems to me the following things are facts...
    --We will be able to educate more people about vaping if they actually encounter us vaping
    --We will reinforce a fear of vaping by allowing ourselves to be forced to vape only where smoking is allowed
    --There are certainly people who will not like us exhaling vapor for whatever reasons
    --People who do not like us exhaling vapor for whatever reasons may work towards restricting where we can vape
    --It is likely that the less courteous a vaper is, the more likely someone might not like them exhaling vapor
    --The larger clouds you blow, the more likely you will be perceived as being discourteous

    Assuming everyone agrees with the above statements, we are all really on the same page.
    So why does this topic always become so polarized?

    I guess it comes down to how people define being courteous...
    And what people feel is the cause of the various vaping restrictions sweeping the country...
    +1
    Very well said indeed.
    And points that I think we can all agree on.
    Thank you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.opus View Post
    The problem is that some folks cross the line when they think that their opinion should be the blueprint on how others should think and live.

    If you don't think you should vape where you can't smoke, I'm fine with that, that's your opinion and you are more than welcome to live by your principles.

    However, If I am minding my business and you try to apply your standards of decorum to me, or worse, you try to blame my behavior for the reason that vaping is being banned, then you and I will have a passionate discussion.

    I know for a fact why vaping is under attack, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the lady in the doctors waiting room who vaped in front of the children.

    I and others have spent several posts outlining exactly how and when e-cigarettes came under attack, and why now, at the height of their popularity (and effectiveness) they are being vilified rather than praised for the life saving devices you and I know them to be.

    ...
    Very well said.
    You hit the nail right on the head.
    Thank you for putting it so well
    I fully agree.

    Let me add one link that explains quite well why vaping bans occur :
    Few dare call it bribery: OK grants, e-cigs, and another brick in the wall

    Follow the money.

    Oh, this comment to the above article makes fascinating reading as well:
    John Davidson Jr
    More Bad News for Tobacco Control
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEDBETTER122 View Post
    I started vaping about 6 months ago; I am now completely winged off "Analog" cigarettes. I am glad that there is a Safer alternative to smoking, but I always hear and see complaints about E cigarette users. Now I treat my E-Cig as I would if it were a "Analog", I don't smoke in Walmarts or in Restaurants, because even though it's not a "Real" cigarette I find it disrespectful to others around you (Who don't smoke).

    Getting to my story, today I took my 2 month old son and daughter (Twins) for their check up and shots. Me and my girlfriend were sitting in the lobby with around 5 other people with their children and infants with them. I noticed this woman sitting across the room bringing her jacket pocket up to her mouth (trying to be sneaky I guess), and exhaled a big plume of Vapor.

    I of course got extremely POed, and said something to the woman, how it was disrespectful with all these Infants sitting within 10 feet of her "Vaping".

    I just think it's crazy how disrespectful some people get with the whole "It's not a real cigarette, so I can smoke it when and where I want".
    I vaped in front of a little kid and I feel ashamed that he got second hand common sense and told him mommy "suck on this thingy instead of cigarettes, mommy, it smells better" of course it was adorable to hear him attempting to say cigarettes. I feel so bad right now... not.

    Infants are going to catch second hand smoke... I mean vapor... I guess we should not cook around the infant either... or take them into public where cologne/perfume should be a bigger concern. Seriously... people complain about the most ridiculous stuff. I had a similar run in with some jerk who had his baby with him and sat RIGHT BESIDE ME and had the nerve to complain about my vaping. I told him I WAS SITTING THERE FIRST and that if he had a problem with it then he can go sit at the other empty chair not 10 feet away.

    We are getting a bad name because of the media scare and the uneducated not willing to research what happens around them daily. Most people blindly head into the world daily with no knowledge of what is going on in legislation and only know what the news tells them (if they even watch that).

    My vapor does not harm anyone. I have the right to vape in public. People have the right to walk away if they don't like the smell. I'm courteous about my public vaping but I do not respond nicely to hostile encounters. If you come up to me with a PO'd attitude thinking I'm going to respond nicely, well, you have another thing coming buddy.

    Vape on and I hope I NEVER see you in public.
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