Prominent Doctors Respond to the FDA

[lvlninety9]

OK, f- it. I've heard a lot of speculation about the ECA, and it's continuing now. I'm coming out in support of them. Like I said in a different thread, there's a chance that when this is all over the suppliers and the ECA are going to laugh skipping all the way to the bank, but for right now, we have about 2 organized groups. One is made up of industry folks (the ECA) and one is made up of consumers (LI Vapers and subsidiaries). BOTH groups have the same problem - they have no credentials.
Let's say you put Mr. Salmon on an MSNBC talking head show, with all kinds of notes surrounding him. On the other side of the table is Margaret Hamburg. Mr. Salmon starts talking about TSNAs and levels and amounts. Ms. Hamburg, having had extensive health and safety training, happens to know more about the subject than Mr. Salmon. End result = Mr. Salmon looks like a flounder. Put Spikey in that same position and she'll end up flat.

Now put Dr. Seigel or Dr. Nitzkin in that same place. Ms. Hamburg tries out her knowledge, and the good doctor can counter every claim she makes.

Who's the better advocate for health, safety, and scientific data?

Here's what the ECA is doing: addressing the *other* part of the press release. Gathering QUALIFIED people to talk about the health claims. And doing a crapload of other things that you and I don't know about.

I suggest that if you donated to them and don't feel that you're getting your money's worth, ask nicely if you can have that money back. If you didn't donate to them, you have no right to bitch, and can kindly shut up.

Thanks!

-Nate

Wow you just have no clue. I have never said that I don't support the ECA. What I said in fact is that they are not doing the job they should be doing. And all the evidence and notes you speak of not written by Joe Blow in his secret lab in his basement. Plain and simple if you have the facts and evidence there in front of you which are all done by others who are the knowledgeable ones then there is no one that can argue with you about the facts. The fact that the FDA left out the majority of their testing and they CAN'T argue that fact. I applaud the fact that you continually support the ECA. If you are happy with the dance around that they are doing hey more power to you. But the truth of the matter is that if the ECA who is the organization that should be putting out this information which is what an organization like this should be doing then you are letting down your membership and supporters. Oh and just out of curiosity why would a not for profit organization be laughing to the bank? Truth? They wouldn't unless they are ripping you off in some way. They should be the first ones to the front lines advocating for us. And truth be told they really aren't. They say oh we are doing this and this but has anyone honestly truly seen it? I've been to their site dozens of times I get their newsletter and you know what? I still haven't seen anything. No news about what they have accomplished in the media or anything. Just a lame dance around the issues that aren't even on the table at the moment. You fight a war like this and guess what you are going to lose. If something is attacking you head on (in this case the dangers) and you try to throw water balloons (avoiding the subject and trying to redirect it somewhere else) you're going to lose. But hey if you are satisfied with not knowing what the ECA is doing and accepting their sad statements as a rebuttal more power to you.

[TheIllustratedMan]

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Start stocking up. Wayne will be glad to take your money.

[TheIllustratedMan]

OK, to be fair and address your concerns in a succinct and mature manner (sorry for the double post) -

ECA = Trade association - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dr. Seigel et al = Expert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hope that helps!

[lvlninety9]

Person with the facts and evidence to prove it trumps an expert who can't argue the evidence presented.

[TheIllustratedMan]

OK, now you've completely lost me. Who do you say has the facts and figures vs who is an expert (by definition has the facts and figures) but can't argue them?


On a side-note, I notice that since your third post here you've been ragging on the ECA. Never even bothered to give them a fair shake. What's the story?

[EDIT] I apologize, it was the second post.

[lvlninety9]

I actually did give them a fair shake. I used to be all for them and what they stood for and were trying to accomplish. It wasn't until I started seeing a lot of complaints about the ECA and started looking at what they were doing. I'm still not completely against the ECA. I really would like to see the organization take off. My complaints are that they don't really seem like the go out there and do what needs to be done type. I argued the whole standpoint of the membership fees and such because yeah they do need financial backing. I still think it's a bit much but I really don't know what they are doing so I let that go. Then there was the whole consumer membership thing that bothered me. Yes they are a trade organization and such but I would be willing to donate money a lot more if I could actually be a member and such and not just be a sideline donation. I have seen that I am not the only one with this discrepancy. The thing that really irked me about the ECA was that joke of a statement. It just to me seemed like they really jumped the gun on it. Don't just throw out a statement or video like they did when people are being scared off by FDA saying it's deadly and our test shows it. We know it's all wrong and I'm sure there are dozens upon dozens of people out there who have scoured the reports and studies and could easily have come up with something better. If the ECA was putting balls to the wall great campaigning and rebuttals then they wouldn't look like they do now.

Yeah there are a lot of people that support them. But at the same time there are a lot of people who would like to see them be a bit more aggressive and respond to the public's fears. I for one am one of those people. I would like for them to attack the issues that the public is focusing on head on. Not tap dance around and try to do this can't we all just get along stuff. People talk deadlier then analogs. Not hey that's being sold to kids so you should quit. This is one of those times where you need to relax the masses not let it stew and try to draw attention to it. I don't know about everyone else but it's been my experience that when you try to turn the attention elsewhere then whatever is being said is probably true.

Also if the ECA has enough clout to get on Good Morning America then someone somewhere in the organization should be able to get these doctors on something more then a blog where a lot of people won't see it. It's this lackadaisical attitude about we'll let them get the word out that disturbs me. While the doctor reports and everything are great but why is it so hard to get it into mainstream media? They were on GMA for cryin out loud. If they can't get them on tv then get them into the major papers or something at least. Get em off of the blogs and out to where everyone can see them.

Ok I'm just ranting now. I really have no personal beef. I'm just disappointed in the lack of effort that I've been seeing. And there are others who feel the same way. Hoping even said where's the beef which I felt fit very well.

[TheIllustratedMan]

All right, let's look at it this way.

When the FDA released it's health alert, I spent a lot of time researching their claims, giving them the benefit of the doubt, and eventually finding empirical evidence to suggest that their claims, even based on their own report, are bogus. I then posted all that data so that others could use calm, rational data to refute the FDA's argument.
Then you have BigJimW and Spikey start posting about how the FDA is in bed with PM and BigPharma and how the money trail leads this way and that way and the government doesn't want you to quit because then the tax revenues dry up.
And so on.
If you read my comments to the both of them, you will see that, while I disapprove of their tactics, I applaud their activism. I have my way, they have their way.

I ask you... what is your way?

[Vocalek]

...of what the doctors had to say, I disagree with their statements:

"Regrettably, the FDA has used biased reporting of this small and inconclusive study, the complete results of which have not been made public, to secure the vocal support of groups such as the American Academy of Pediatrics Tobacco Consortium, the Institute for Global Health, and the American Lung Association in their attack on electronic cigarettes."

I think the docs have it backwards. It was the pressure brought to bear on the FDA by such groups (especially the ALA) that caused all this nonsense in the first place.

[Janetda]

Thanks Lacy, This is great stuff. Is there a link to this that isn't on a supplier's web site? Nothing against suppliers, but if we're going to direct others to read this, some other source might hold a little more clout.

[quovadis]

Dr.'s Siegel, Radu, and Nitzkin all respond to the FDA's report regarding the electronic cigarette.

Prominent Public Health Physicians and Tobacco Researchers Expose Double Standard in the FDA?s Recent Study of Electronic Cigarettes and Challenge the FDA?s Alarmist Attitude Toward the Devices

This is good to hear.
However the FDA don't test a damned thing. There are independent labs that test products.
It's like sending your car to the EPA for emissions control.!!!
The EPA makes the rules and regulations but they don't test a bloody thing.

The lab that tested the ecig probably had a bit of residual "bad stuff" left in their testing equipment...I would not put it past them.
Lazy bunch of sorry ****ers if you ask me.
If this FDA stuff goes too far i have already been in talks with one FDA certified lab overseas, as well as one over here.
Each liquid has to be tested with that particular cigarette. They test 10 cigs of the same model.
The problem is that each test is $2'800 so it can get quite expensive.
We may have to pool our resources so as to win this one!!!

Why use force, when there is Vaseline?