TPD vote: Europe has fallen - Big Money has triumphed - Page 2
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Thread: TPD vote: Europe has fallen - Big Money has triumphed

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPACKlick View Post
    Google fu is failing me, can someone link me to the contents/effects of the legislation passed?
    Don't have the actual text yet, but this was just tweeted: EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Questions & Answers: New rules for tobacco products

    The ecig portion is about halfway down the page.

    ETA: Just skimmed the press release, and IMO it's pretty much self-serving PR.
    Last edited by AgentAnia; 02-26-2014 at 12:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SPACKlick View Post
    Google fu is failing me, can someone link me to the contents/effects of the legislation passed?
    Clive Bates is yer man on this subject: MEPs – do you really want to vote for this? « The counterfactual

    That's a kind of executive summary, with only the most hideously nonsensical parts of the TPD emphasised. Look back through his blog history to find more detail on this *&$£(*&!~~#?(*"£!!! piece of legislation than you'll ever want to know. But it's important to know this stuff, if you want to go on vaping.

    E-CIG HEALTH RISK HORROR
    Scientists have identified a new shocking risk to health for users of e-cigarettes. Using the controversial devices exposes users to deadly doses of moralistic verbiage, quasi-legal self-contradictory pigswill, bad science, invented science, lies, obfuscation, weapons-grade carcinogenic rhetoric and mutagenic wittering. "Vapers" also risk exposure to levels of infuriating smugness at least 5000% in excess of OSHA limits. "In the end your brain shuts down and you cease to believe the world actually makes any sense at all", said one e-cig user who preferred to remain anonymous.
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    Senior Member Verified Member SPACKlick's Avatar
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    But it's wrong...by making all e-cigs the same strength you remove my ability to titrate my nicotine levels. Also, by my reading of that summary, it all only applies to nicotine containing devices. So a 0-nic e-cig is not subject to any of those rules, right?
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    Self-congratulatory gloats being tweeted now by EU ANTZ. Disgusting. Shameful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sebt View Post
    Clive Bates is yer man on this subject: MEPs – do you really want to vote for this? « The counterfactual
    ...

    E-CIG HEALTH RISK HORROR
    Scientists have identified a new shocking risk to health for users of e-cigarettes. Using the controversial devices exposes users to deadly doses of moralistic verbiage, quasi-legal self-contradictory pigswill, bad science, invented science, lies, obfuscation, weapons-grade carcinogenic rhetoric and mutagenic wittering. "Vapers" also risk exposure to levels of infuriating smugness at least 5000% in excess of OSHA limits. "In the end your brain shuts down and you cease to believe the world actually makes any sense at all", said one e-cig user who preferred to remain anonymous.
    He has put this very well indeed
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPACKlick View Post
    Google fu is failing me, can someone link me to the contents/effects of the legislation passed?
    Here's a comprehensive list: link
    There might be a summary somewhere on Clive Bate's web site if you have a look
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    Quote Originally Posted by SPACKlick View Post
    But it's wrong...by making all e-cigs the same strength you remove my ability to titrate my nicotine levels. Also, by my reading of that summary, it all only applies to nicotine containing devices. So a 0-nic e-cig is not subject to any of those rules, right?
    they cannot ban 0 mg ecig liquid. BUT - as much as I know - they can BAN any kind of e-cig DEVICE. Which will then give you nothing were you can use 0 mg ecig liquid. Except for the junk made by BT. And BT will make darn sure that its cigalikes are proprietary and non-refillable.
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    Senior Member Verified Member SPACKlick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjaffm View Post
    they cannot ban 0 mg ecig liquid. BUT - as much as I know - they can BAN any kind of e-cig DEVICE. Which will then give you nothing were you can use 0 mg ecig liquid. Except for the junk made by BT. And BT will make darn sure that its cigalikes are proprietary and non-refillable.
    [strike]hmm, unless I'm missing some over-arching definition of Electronic cigarette here, an Electronic Cigarette onlyexists if it has nicotine in it. A Battery, Tube, Atomiser and Tank are only e-cigs if they have nicotine in them. Trying to find the relevant definitions now. The law, from the reports I have now found, is fan-drafting-error-tastic for little things which mean not what they should.[/strike]

    Article 2

    (21a) ‘electronic cigarette’ means a product, or any component thereof, including cartridges and the device without cartridge, that can be used for consumption of nicotine-containing vapour via a mouth piece. Electronic cigarettes can be disposable, refillable by means of a refill container or rechargable with single use cartridges;

    (22a) ‘refill container’ means a receptacle that contains a nicotine-containing liquid, which can be used to refill an electronic cigarette.
    Ok, found it, all devices that are capable are e-cigs, it's the refill containers that do not count unless they have nicotine in. Although note. An e-cig designed for nasal use is not covered by the policy, so we could all just switch, right?
    Last edited by SPACKlick; 02-26-2014 at 12:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anjaffm View Post
    He has put this very well indeed
    That was actually my take on what it must feel like to be Clive Bates reading through all this EU crap - rather than his actual words!

    (it's bad enough just being a grunt vaper - so this is a kind of appreciation of what Clive Bates has been doing for us!)

    Though I'm sure he's too polite to put it this way, I bet it's how he feels....
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    Having been closely involved in this for nearly 4 years now, the behavior of the EU lawmaking process has been utterly shocking.

    There is a monumental democratic deficit in the EU, and it's one we hoped we'd addressed as a community by lobbying MEPs and attempting to present the commission with good, robust scientific data.

    In the end, we were successful on the first count but the other two seats of power (the commission and the council) colluded to roll back most of the gains from the MEPs vote in the October vote.

    So, what had the most influence over this process?

    1. The history of the Tobacco industry and the successful spin created by Tobacco Control (and associated public health groups) which associated the e-cig industry with the tobacco industry. By the time we were able to persuade Public Health groups that this was a half (or quarter, even) truth, it was too late - council and commission had their positions set in stone.

    2. General ignorance about nicotine: this is a huge issue. The addictiveness and toxicity of pure nicotine has been greatly exaggerated over time, and this had led to it's notoriety becoming completely entrenched in public opinion and, by extension, political opinion.

    3. Ignorance of scientific data on e-cigarettes specifically. Children, gateways, safety; all the usual talking points for which there are no evidence have been given a starring role as a function of the (almost univerasally misapplied) Precautionary Principal.

    4. National governments - hard to know exactly what their motivations are, or where the influence comes from. In most cases, probably from tobacco control, but there is certainly a concern about tax revenues which was expressed openly by Italy. In any case, national governments were strongly opposed to ecigs. All lobbying efforts towards the UK government, for example, were met with almost universal dismissal.

    5. Lobbying. Although there was a paucity of lobbying from the pharma sector in the early part of the process, it stepped up at the point at which med regs were removed from article 18 (the October vote). They probably thought they had this one in the bag to begin with, but it's also worth bearing in mind that their lobbying resources are thinly spread currently because of the new rulings on clinical trials. Also, the tobacco industry was lobbying very strongly on other areas of the TPD, and their support for our position (broadly speaking) did not play favourably to us. One could almost suspect that this was done in the full knowledge that their support would be the strongest move they could make against us.

    In the end, scientists' were misrepresented. The commission and the "Rapporteur" (the MEP in charge of the process, Linda McAvan) chose their own sources and disregarded dissenting voices, smearing them as either 'unknowns' or as paid stooges. They were, of course, neither of these.

    I suppose the saddest part of all of this is that the vote itself was a total mess. Watching it online there was obvious confusion as to whether or not voting against article 18 would undermine the whole tpd which, if it were delayed now, would go to the next parliament. The fact is, very few MEPs cared sufficiently about e-cigs to risk the TPD being derailed. The real tragedy of this is that the commission's own estimate is that the TPD as a whole is likely to result in a 2% reduction in smoking prevalence (I.e. 2% of 28% of the adult european population) over 5 years. Year on year, this could not be measured to statistical significance. Compare this with an 8% decline in cigarette sales volume in France over the past year!

    And all of this doesn't even touch on the fact that the travesty of the 20 year ban on Snus never even surfaced as a serious point of debate. Tobacco harm reduction is clearly not on the agenda of the European parliament.

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