TPD Article 20 section 5.d: Does this make my future presence on ECF illegal?
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Thread: TPD Article 20 section 5.d: Does this make my future presence on ECF illegal?

  1. #1
    Super Member Supporting Member FourWinds's Avatar
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    Default TPD Article 20 section 5.d: Does this make my future presence on ECF illegal?

    Most of you will have read Article 20 by now. If not you should; you can read it here: Updated info post: TPD – provisions relating to e-cigarettes The counterfactual

    Section 5 of the shining document is concerned with stopping people having any information about e-cigs from just about anywhere it seems; again, if you didn't read it DO SO NOW.

    5.d) is what this post is about. It says:

    "
    d) any form of public or private contribution to any event, activity or individual person with the aim or direct or indirect effect of promoting electronic cigarettes and refill containers and involving or taking place in several Member States or otherwise having cross-border effects is prohibited;
    "

    To me this means that in the future it will be illegal for me to even discuss e-cigs here in positive fashion. Do you guys read it the same way?
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    Administrator low_tar_neil's Avatar
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    Nah you're alright, our servers are in the US
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    Super Member Supporting Member FourWinds's Avatar
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    But it's talking about 'my' communications, and not where the servers are. I hope you're correct, but I'm not reading it the way you are.
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    ... or otherwise having cross-border effects...
    This is the part that disturbs me. They don't specify *which* borders.

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    They cannot stop people discussing the issue, it would be a clear violation of freedom of expression under the European Convention of Human Rights (although the current UK government wants out of that for obvious reasons). The wording is very dodgy admittedly, I'm not sure whether its intentionally dodgy though. It may have been intended to mean commercial promotion as that is what the whole of section 5 relates to although that's obviously far from clear. Its more important how the member states actually interpret it when translating it into national law of course.

    If they did bring out a law banning people talking about, which in all honesty I doubt they will, I think it would backfire on them stupendously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by makeyourself View Post
    They cannot stop people discussing the issue, it would be a clear violation of freedom of expression under the European Convention of Human Rights ...

    Its more important how the member states actually interpret it when translating it into national law of course. ...

    If they did bring out a law banning people talking about, which in all honesty I doubt they will, I think it would backfire on them stupendously.
    Precisely.
    There is such a thing as the Constitution of the member states, as well.
    In Germany, citizens have a right to free speech / freedom of expression. This is guaranteed by the Constitution (Grundgesetz) of my country. The only exception is that it is forbidden to make statements supporting a N*zi position, in the open.

    An EU product directive (!) that makes it a crime (!) for private citizens to speak or write about a perfectly legal product (!) does not have an ice cube's chance in h** . I do not know whether the member states would be stupid enough to even try to enact parts of a product directive that go directly against the constitution. But even if they try, that nonsense will not stand up in court.

    Try to drag a few vapers from a vapers meeting into jail for daring to speak (!) about a perfectly legal product - and you will have a constitutional lawsuit with several plaintiffs the next day.

    .. Oh, and do not try to start with this "cross-border effect" nonsense.
    As most citizens of the EU countries know, we have freedom of movement from one EU country to the next. So there is nothing - I repeat: nothing - stopping a, say, French, British, Austrian etc person from coming to Germany and participating in a conversation.

    Same with forums. Yeah, control the internet - so only people from country A can join a forum in country A.

    Not an ice cube's chance in h***.

    Drag me to court for posting in a forum on a perfectly legal product (!) and you will have a lawsuit on your hands the very next day.
    Last edited by Anjaffm; 03-03-2014 at 04:22 PM.
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    Super Member Supporting Member FourWinds's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm sure you're all correct and it's not meant to be applied to individuals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FourWinds View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure you're all correct and it's not meant to be applied to individuals.
    Oh, it may be MEANT to be applied to individuals. I do not trust the EU as far as I can throw their most corrupt politician.
    BUT - that does not mean that it CAN BE applied to individuals. For the simple reason that individuals have rights, laid down in the Constitutions of their countries. And no product directive (!) by some unelected EU politicos can simply break the Constitution of sovereign and independent countries. Especially not where it applies to the constitutional rights of the citizens of said countries.

    And if they do try, the courts will have a field day striking such nonsense down as unconstitutional.
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    It's legalize for commercial promotion, this bit is to make sponsorship or donating prizes or funding of anything at all if it promotes the use of ecigs. It dose not prohibit people talking to each other about ecigs, it dose however have implications for vendor forums.
    Basically once this is law we can talk and post about the 2 or 3 ecigs that are left on the market as long as no manufacture or vendor contributes financially or by way of donation of goods or services.
    I duno how much ECF depends on vendor contributions or charges made to vendors but thats now illegal. Well maybe not ecf as it's servers are outside the eu but ecf isnt the only forum. Oh and the reviewers on youtube are now going to have to buy the stuff they review as free samples will be considered contribution.
    This is a draconian imposition on something that is driven by pull, advertising may be considered pushed on the viewer/listener/reader but web sites have to be sought out.
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    Appears if they make the refillables illegal then you EU folks aren't going to be able to have forums about them.
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