Possible solution to deposit problem - E-Cigarette Forum

kinabaloo · 04-07-2009, 06:49 AM

Separate the air flow (draw) from the vapor production.

The atomiser will be more or less air-tight; no air = no oxygen = no burning. The juice is vaporised in a sealed unit; on phase change the vapor exits though a membrane or nozzle into the air stream. It does this because of the huge volume increase.

Ah, but the dry deposits will still cause problems, unless we can create juices with no dry deposits.

And since we don't know as yet, whether the base juice contributes anything to to the deposits, this may be just a silly idea; unless there is another advantage to sealing the vapor prduction from the air flow (as opposed to just the juice, which is desirable in itself in future atomizer/VP designs).

RjG · 04-07-2009, 06:56 AM

Anything that can cook into a hard crunchy mess like that... I'd prefer to leave it deposited on the atomizer than in my lungs, kinabaloo

kinabaloo · 04-07-2009, 07:01 AM

Exactly, the idea is to disallow burning ! It's an improvement!

At the moment the juice is heated in air. I am suggesting heating with no air. But requires more power because the volume being heated will be greater

RjG - Your comment has no relation to what i said. If the deposits burn there will be breakdown gasses and you are already inhaling them. My idea should prevent that by exluding air (in particular, oxygen) from the heater unit. The vapor is injected into the air stream rather than the air stream passing over the heater coil.

RjG · 04-07-2009, 07:56 AM

Well, I hadn't given it as much thought as you think

If you vaporize something, you take the light elements, the vaporizable ones out of the solution, and the crud is left behind... the stuff that doesn't vaporize. That's what is stuck to the atomizer coil, I always assumed. The impurities and leftovers from the flavoring, etc. Kinda like when you boil water, the sediment remains while the pure steam boils off?

That was the thought behind my comment.... that if there is components in nicquid that don't vaporize, I'd rather leave it behind, than breath it in.

You are thinking the deposit is caused by a chemical change from burning? ... so that is different way of thinking of it altogether. (Although I know I can burn spaghetti sauce on the bottom of a saucepan in the absence of air too. hmmm where's our chemists?)

Too many unknowns

Can you cook up some nicquid in a vacuum? Would that tell you right away if it's oxidizing, or leaving residue?

surbitonPete · 04-07-2009, 09:15 AM

I am wondering if the juice could be distilled in some way that makes it leave no residue.

kinabaloo · 04-07-2009, 04:47 PM

The 'dry deposit' is what is left when a juice evaporates. This ideally would be zero. Certain flavors, colors and impurities make up the dry deposit. We can aim for a juice that leaves no dry deposit.

The dry deposit will 'burn' by repeated heating on the coil and degrade to some extent, much like food stuck to the bottom of a saucepan.

The burning does not cause the dry deposit!

The degradation is caused by heat. Partly it is aided by oxygen from the air.

Keeping the juice separate from the air stream would be a sensible design.

One approach is to send a small amount of juice from a sealed (but refillable) container to the heater as required - by nozzle, whether pump (mechanical or electrical), piezo device, etc.

Another way, the point of this thread, is to move the coil to the juice side, so to speak. A small amount of juice is heated till it boils; as it becomes gasses, the huge volume increase forces it out through a nozzle into the air stream.

kinabaloo · 04-07-2009, 05:02 PM

Pete - know your meaning and it's a reasonable idea but would not e a good approach. The juice makers can try to make sure that the formula contains no substances that will leave a dry deposit (everything in it will evaporate by 160C). It would be very wasteful, time-consuming and complicated to heat all the juice in advance to get the dry deposits out of the juice before we use it in a VP.

revdrlon · 04-07-2009, 10:57 PM

there has to be some way to get around this, the manum mod seems to fix it just by getting hotter

kinabaloo · 04-07-2009, 11:02 PM

That's the general opinion, although Sun says it doesn't help in his case. Of course, that means we are breathing it in but no worse than a walk down the highstreet i guess.

We need juices with less dry deposit - that will be the biggest help in this regard.

04-07-2009, 06:49 AM	#1
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	Possible solution to deposit problem Separate the air flow (draw) from the vapor production. The atomiser will be more or less air-tight; no air = no oxygen = no burning. The juice is vaporised in a sealed unit; on phase change the vapor exits though a membrane or nozzle into the air stream. It does this because of the huge volume increase. Ah, but the dry deposits will still cause problems, unless we can create juices with no dry deposits. And since we don't know as yet, whether the base juice contributes anything to to the deposits, this may be just a silly idea; unless there is another advantage to sealing the vapor prduction from the air flow (as opposed to just the juice, which is desirable in itself in future atomizer/VP designs). Last edited by kinabaloo; 04-07-2009 at 06:59 AM.

04-07-2009, 07:01 AM	#3
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	Exactly, the idea is to disallow burning ! It's an improvement! At the moment the juice is heated in air. I am suggesting heating with no air. But requires more power because the volume being heated will be greater RjG - Your comment has no relation to what i said. If the deposits burn there will be breakdown gasses and you are already inhaling them. My idea should prevent that by exluding air (in particular, oxygen) from the heater unit. The vapor is injected into the air stream rather than the air stream passing over the heater coil. Last edited by kinabaloo; 04-07-2009 at 07:28 AM.

04-07-2009, 07:56 AM	#4
RjG Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Edmonton AB Canada Posts: 577	Well, I hadn't given it as much thought as you think If you vaporize something, you take the light elements, the vaporizable ones out of the solution, and the crud is left behind... the stuff that doesn't vaporize. That's what is stuck to the atomizer coil, I always assumed. The impurities and leftovers from the flavoring, etc. Kinda like when you boil water, the sediment remains while the pure steam boils off? That was the thought behind my comment.... that if there is components in nicquid that don't vaporize, I'd rather leave it behind, than breath it in. You are thinking the deposit is caused by a chemical change from burning? ... so that is different way of thinking of it altogether. (Although I know I can burn spaghetti sauce on the bottom of a saucepan in the absence of air too. hmmm where's our chemists?) Too many unknowns Can you cook up some nicquid in a vacuum? Would that tell you right away if it's oxidizing, or leaving residue? Last edited by RjG; 04-07-2009 at 08:10 AM.

04-07-2009, 09:15 AM	#5
surbitonPete Ultra Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North Yorkshire UK Posts: 2,967	I am wondering if the juice could be distilled in some way that makes it leave no residue. __________________ It's time to 'really' do something about changing this world for the better, click the link:- http://thevenusproject.com

04-07-2009, 04:47 PM	#6
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	The 'dry deposit' is what is left when a juice evaporates. This ideally would be zero. Certain flavors, colors and impurities make up the dry deposit. We can aim for a juice that leaves no dry deposit. The dry deposit will 'burn' by repeated heating on the coil and degrade to some extent, much like food stuck to the bottom of a saucepan. The burning does not cause the dry deposit! The degradation is caused by heat. Partly it is aided by oxygen from the air. Keeping the juice separate from the air stream would be a sensible design. One approach is to send a small amount of juice from a sealed (but refillable) container to the heater as required - by nozzle, whether pump (mechanical or electrical), piezo device, etc. Another way, the point of this thread, is to move the coil to the juice side, so to speak. A small amount of juice is heated till it boils; as it becomes gasses, the huge volume increase forces it out through a nozzle into the air stream. Last edited by kinabaloo; 04-07-2009 at 04:56 PM.

04-07-2009, 06:56 AM	#2
RjG Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Edmonton AB Canada Posts: 577	Anything that can cook into a hard crunchy mess like that... I'd prefer to leave it deposited on the atomizer than in my lungs, kinabaloo

04-07-2009, 05:02 PM	#7
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	Pete - know your meaning and it's a reasonable idea but would not e a good approach. The juice makers can try to make sure that the formula contains no substances that will leave a dry deposit (everything in it will evaporate by 160C). It would be very wasteful, time-consuming and complicated to heat all the juice in advance to get the dry deposits out of the juice before we use it in a VP.

04-07-2009, 10:57 PM	#8
revdrlon Full Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ky Posts: 24	there has to be some way to get around this, the manum mod seems to fix it just by getting hotter

04-07-2009, 11:02 PM	#9
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	That's the general opinion, although Sun says it doesn't help in his case. Of course, that means we are breathing it in but no worse than a walk down the highstreet i guess. We need juices with less dry deposit - that will be the biggest help in this regard.

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