Welcome to the forum markule,
I think you've got it one there, oxidised/polymerised organic compounds,
probably not all due to PG though (flavours, additives, extracts etc).
Hope that vaping will work for you as well as seems to for most people here.
See you in the experiments & modding forums later then....
good luck
Markule - how does PG end up turning into plastic? And when you say "plastic", is that plastic in a layman's sense? The stuff buckets and chairs and toys are made out of? If so, yikes, that doesn't sound fantastic, although your saying that it is hard to remove makes me think it must also be hard to burn off with our atomisers (lessening the chance of vapour contamination).
Thanks.
I do mean plastic in the layman sense, as a generic term for polymers of any kind.Originally Posted by Klimpt
From polymer: Definition from Answers.com
Any of numerous natural and synthetic compounds of usually high molecular weight consisting of up to millions of repeated linked units, each a relatively light and simple molecule.
[Greek polumerēs, consisting of many parts : polu-, poly- + meros, part.]
Think of it like a chain. Each link is a simple loop. Hook a bunch together in line and you get a long chain. Link two chains together in the middle with another link and you get something else entirely. Now, randomly connect links, sometimes at an end, sometimes in the middle, sometimes to other chains at ends or middles, and you get polymers. Similarly, you can make propylene glycol act like links in a chain, especially when you add heat and oxygen. What you use as the sub units affects what the polymer will be like. Plastic wrap is low density plastic, soft, stretchy, melts fairly easy. Milk jugs are somewhat higher, but still soft. Burn either of those and you'll see what heat and oxygen can do to a polymer. However, enough heat and oxygen and any carbon and hydrogen based material can be oxidized to carbon dioxide and water (may take a whole lot). So, it may burn off, but will it before something else fails?
Changing the sub unit, the links, makes all the difference between these and the sort of heat and mechanical toughness of Kevlar, fairly high molecular weight stuff, or the plastic they use in artificial hips, which is really strong. Since the atomizers get hot, but not 1000 degree hot (just to pick a number), they may not be able to burn off all the polymer completely, but the byproducts should contain minimal amounts of the elements that result in really hazardous fumes (chlorine especially comes to mind).
Hopefully that's what you were after. Oh, and just because I ran across it: Polypropylene Glycol -
Minimum Fatal Dose Level:
3. 3= MODERATELY TOXIC: PROBABLE ORAL LETHAL DOSE (HUMAN) 0.5-5 G/KG, BETWEEN 1 OUNCE & 1 PINT (OR 1 LB) FOR 70 KG PERSON (150 LB).
[Gosselin, R.E., H.C. Hodge, R.P. Smith, and M.N. Gleason. Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products. 4th ed. Baltimore: Williams and Wilkins, 1976., p. II-120]**PEER REVIEWED**
You'll never inhale that much char.
Markule....my understanding of chemistry is zero so my question may be stupid...but is it possible that some sort of additive in the juice could stop those 'chain's' linking together so that instead of building into a hard 'plasticy' lump it might be more powdery and easier to wash off?
Markule, I'm not sure if you are just giving extra information, or if you are being mistaken in the name of what is in e-liquid: but PG is PropyleenGlycol. PolypropyleneGlycol is another beast... (just warning, because we don't want anyone going to fetch PPG thinking it's the right thing for his/her liquid - hope you don't mind )
Markule - thanks for that explanation, but I'm afraid it is just evading me what your exact point is.
I think you are saying that heating PG has the potential to turn it into a plastic/polymer named PPG (if enough heat is applied), and that there is a potential that harmful substances may be released into our vapur as a result. Is that right? And does the bit you highlighted suggest that 1 ounce of PPG could be fatal?
Could you break this down for us laypeople a bit more? Are you saying that potentially fatal amounts of PPG are being produced?
I don't think he's implying any health risks, rather the reverse.
Really this is all about speculation about the make-up of the atomizer deposit.
i.e. some of the e-liquid may be polymerised, as well as oxidised, onto the coil during heating.
Technically you could say it's plastic,
but it's likely to be a whole mixture of chain lengths,
from one unit of PG (or VG) to who knows how many units,
So not really a uniform plastic, in the everyday sense as we you know it.
I think the technical term is 'amorphous' (i.e. non structured & mixed)
Especially since there's other chemicals in the mix.
How much of the gunk eliquid is
directly polymerised PG, oxidised PG, broken up PG,
& how much is coming from other ingredients
(flavours, chemicals in the tobacco extract etc)
or a truly random complex mixture of heat-reactants
and/or polymers of all of the above, is unknown.
My money is on some of all of them, but the more things you put in your e-liquid,
the more complex the possibilities.
The net effect is all we see, the black gunk,
what we'd all like to do is find a safe, easy way to remove it.
Finding out what the black stuff is, may help with that.
Last edited by exogenesis; 04-19-2009 at 02:15 PM. Reason: typo
Actually, you have a good intuitive grasp of the matter based on your comment. Yes, there are assorted polymerization inhibitors (nice descriptive name for something that stops the chains from growing) but most of them are things that you probably really don't want to add to the vape liquid. Way outside my area of expertise, but some of the inhibitors I see with a quick google search look similar to things that tend to smell bad (amines like triethyl amine that smells like old fish), too complicated and big to vaporize, or aromatic compounds i'd hesitate to breathe (though phenol is the active ingredient in throat sprays, so may not be too bad at the dose you'd need for vaping). Stopping the chains would result in a less solid lump due to smaller molecules. However, as with many of the problems noted around the forums, the solution looks like it's raising it's own set of problems....Nonetheless, good call.
That they're very different is exactly the point. PG is just fine. However, link a bunch of them together and you get PPG, our very different beast. PG would wash right out, it's water soluble. PPG might be the mystery gunk, at least that's my hypothesis, and different enough that something else entirely will be needed. The extra info was just extra, but indicates to me that if it is PPG that it shouldn't be much of a direct health hazard at the amounts vaping works with. Absolutely no problem clarifying that, it's very easy to overshoot the audience's knowledge and end up misleading them, which is the last thing I want to do.
Or, PG good in e-juice, PPG bad.
Nail head squarely hit.
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