Decomposition of VG to acrolein

**Letzin Hale** · 05-03-2009, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by kinabaloo

I have no agenda and not trying to prove anything. Long ago, I suggested testing only VG+water and only PG+water, particularly with regard to deposit formation and the 'bad smell', as the science suggested that VG decomposition could partly account these.

If you heat VG+distilled water, a deposit is formed. A chemistry book tells that VG starts to decompose at just below the boiling point. So acrolein is a likely intermediary in the formation of the deposit (there are other mechanisms but this is the most likely one).

I'm sorry Kin but I really do not understand what you are trying to achieve.
You stress the importance of finding out if acrolein is produced in case it is and the FDA use it as a weapon. That's fine and commendable. Then you confuse things by stating that you are not trying to prove anything. What is the point of all your discussion and supposition then? I honestly don't get it. When presented with real, tangible, relevant, recent scientific evidence that aimed to reproduce the vaporisation effect in order to test specifically for the formation of acrolein (at 300C), you dismiss it as if it wasn't credible in your world, why is that? That test is the only one that has been done to simulate vaporisation to the best of my knowledge. You jump to conclusions far too easily for them to be considered scientifically valid. I feel that you have decided the conclusion and now have to make the evidence support it. Theories are created to be tested and proved/disproved. If an experiment gives a different result than you were expecting then it has not failed as it has presented you with a conclusion. It only fails if nothing happens when something is expected to happen. This is nothing personal but I really would like to know where you are going with all this?
Alan.

Quote from report on ECOpure liquid.

**Nuck** · 05-03-2009, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by surbitonPete

I just can't understand why Nucks is so clean.....perhaps I should get a 401.

I wish I knew what we do different as well. I suspect that whatever it is would reveal why the variations in atomizer life is so dramatic between users. Hopefully someone will figure it out soon.

**kinabaloo** · 05-03-2009, 10:38 PM

Letzin - By 'not trying to prove anything' I mean simply I have no agenda, no pre-conclusions; I just follow the science and the evidence. That acrolein is produced by decomposing glycerine is a fact. The amounts are tiny, but unlikely to be zero.

As an example, I recently thought that impurities in the VG could account for the deposit seen with VG+water, but further research showed that as unlikely; so the decomposition remains the likely explanation.

As Pete said, and I have also said before, it is in non-ideal circumstances that the decomposition might be enhanced and become noticeable/detectable. Smell can detect acrolein in ppm, on the limits of what a simple vapor sample test can detect.

The tests you refer to say 'not detected'; this does not mean zero, but it does mean tiny; no real disagreement in this.

**surbitonPete** · 05-03-2009, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by kinabaloo

Pete - I agree Nuck's atty is in pretty good shape for 2 1/2 months use. Perhaps the battery is on the powerful side of aveage or something; maybe i will look again through those atty life report threads to find the average for 401s.

ps: Pete, you are invaluable to the forum and contributed so many ideas I dare not begin to list them for fear of leaving any out.

Thanks kinba....I have lots of ideas.....unfortunately most of them are failures.....lol .....but the great thing about all our chatting is that it provides inspiration for more.

Knucks atty is a complete mystery to me but perhaps voltage differences do play some kind of part, it's so hard to think of what else .... yet I would have expected to have noticed a difference in using my mods they both work at slightly different voltages to the mini pipes 4.1 fully charged voltage...the phone mod works at just over 5 volts fully charged. When I checked my evo batteries they were only charging up to 2.8 volts and the batteries were only a month old.

**kinabaloo** · 05-03-2009, 10:51 PM

Pete - maybe it's the climate up there in Yorkshire ;

Seriously, perhaps because of the extra dampness of the air (clutching at straws?).

btw, you keep your juices air-tight and out of sunlight, and didn't add tap water ?

**Kate** · 05-03-2009, 10:54 PM

I'm in Yorkshire Kin and my atomisers last three to four weeks.

**surbitonPete** · 05-03-2009, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by kinabaloo

Pete - maybe it's the climate up there in Yorkshire ;

Seriously, perhaps because of the extra dampness of the air (clutching at straws?).

btw, you keep your juices air-tight and out of sunlight, and didn't add tap water ?

Interestingly the thought has gone through my mind.....I have been keeping the heating down as low as I can stand it to save money this year....I suppose it's possible that the average ambient temperature could make a difference...perhaps things will change now it's getting a little bit warmer!? It has been slightly warmer just this last week...It's hard to believe but perhaps it was the temperature change and not the vodka that gave my last mini pipe atty a new lease of life.