Decomposition of VG to acrolein - Page 4 - E-Cigarette Forum

kinabaloo · 05-03-2009, 05:37 PM

Kate - that's interesting. After a quick look into it, the only slight worry is a low flash-point.

Exo - just a petrochemical mix, available in different forms, with a range of hydrocarbons, mostly alkanes. Is used as 'baby oil' and in some fog machines, so can't be too bad (can it?)

surbitonPete · 05-03-2009, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exogenesis

Now I'm going to have to go and get some PEG400 as well.

'Mineral oil' sounds a little undefined, is it a recognised 'formulation' ?

Any chance of you doing a dead atty dissection Pete ?

I have taken it apart exo.....and it looks just as gunky as any with the vodka juice ..so I don't really know how the vodka made it work so well. They drape some of the fibreglass wicking material onto the coil with these mini pipe atomizers and it's probably why they work so well at first ...but the fiberglass just joins up with all the gunk and becomes one big black mass on the coil.

kinabaloo · 05-03-2009, 05:47 PM

Some info on PEG 400 :

"PEG - 400 is harmless towards skin ; easily soluble in water and faintly sweet in taste. This makes it an attractive ingredient in cosmetics such as creames ; jellies and lotions . PEG-400 is added to lotions intended to have a mild relaxing effect on skin . It is easily absorbed by the skin acting as solution promoter for the therapeutic agents which can be added to the lotion. It imparts smoothness to skin but does not have a strong dehydrating effect as glycerine.

PEG - 400 is a superior and thermally stable heating medium than the conventional mediums , due to its higher molecular weight ; higher boiling point and specific heat."

Haven't discovered the boiling point/range yet.

Available in 250kg drums from: POLYETHYLENE GLYCOL

exogenesis · 05-03-2009, 05:47 PM

Thank Pete,

maybe thats a design flaw, better initial function, poor lifetime.

Certainly 901 attys I have don't have that underbridge wick stuffing,
but the 510 (Titan) one's do.

All comes together in a nice tight gunk-ball on the coil ?

edit: I'll see if I can order some EUPharm PEG400 from Boots.

Letzin Hale · 05-03-2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by surbitonPete

That seems to point to this ecopure liquid probably being 'worse' for gunking up coils because it's all VG and not PG.

You know Pete, some of the guys on here are so obsessed with acrolein and finding that it's being invisibly produced and will kill us all if we use VG that I'm beginning to wonder if they went through all of this with cigarettes. I have yet to see one independent scientific test from them, just endless speculation. I just wish they would put the money up and have liquids tested to their demanding specifications so that we could all sleep safely in our beds.
They seem to want to ignore any contra indication of the existence of this substance, even laboratory tests and the simple test that acrolein stinks and tastes like .... when produced.
As for gunking atomisers, I have been using VG with the same atomiser for just over two months and with the aid of good daylight and a magnifying glass I can see the coil clearly with zero gunk. I'm so tempted to rip the mesh off and take a photo but it is running so well that I will resist until it gives up.
Alan.

Kate · 05-03-2009, 05:56 PM

There are a couple of forum threads about PEG, I don't know how useful they are:

PEG a new ingredient, instead of PG and VG

Polyethylene Glycol 400

surbitonPete · 05-03-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letzin Hale

You know Pete, some of the guys on here are so obsessed with acrolein and finding that it's being invisibly produced and will kill us all if we use VG that I'm beginning to wonder if they went through all of this with cigarettes. I have yet to see one independent scientific test from them, just endless speculation. I just wish they would put the money up and have liquids tested to their demanding specifications so that we could all sleep safely in our beds.
They seem to want to ignore any contra indication of the existence of this substance, even laboratory tests and the simple test that acrolein stinks and tastes like .... when produced.
As for gunking atomisers, I have been using VG with the same atomiser for just over two months and with the aid of good daylight and a magnifying glass I can see the coil clearly with zero gunk. I'm so tempted to rip the mesh off and take a photo but it is running so well that I will resist until it gives up.
Alan.

Hi Alan ....I don't worry much over what I am vaping....in my mind it just cannot be compared to what I was smoking...the only thing that did worry me was the possibility of vaping bits of the polyester but I don't use that any more. ......I have no idea why your coil is clean though.....what make of juice do you vape?........I have tried TW and Janty and the e-cigs juicel and they all cover the coils in black gunk within just a few days.

Nuck · 05-03-2009, 06:05 PM

Given my luck with atomizers and how clean they get with a phosphoric acid bath once a month (I do no other maintenance except the odd blowout when changing flavours), and since I use pure VG almost exclusively and only drip, it is possible that the cause of a lot of the buildup that many report is the result of the cart material and the flavours.

If there is a single test that produces a positive for acrolein, I'll stop using VG that day, but it seems given the recent lab reports (1 recommended VG and the other found no traces of acrolein) that VG is currently the safest option.

kinabaloo · 05-03-2009, 06:09 PM

Letzin - I vape with VG although I suspect there is a slight acrolein expsure from it. It is not alarmist; it's just that the chemistry and evidence points to it. The denaturisation of VG also gunks up coils shortening their lifespan considerably. Then there's the bad taste, not pleasant even aside from health effects.

I am not that worried about acrolein as it is also produced by some types of cooking, as is a similar toxin called acrylamide. The tests you referred to were not set up to detect acrolein. The chemistry is that acrolein will be produced when VG is raised to its boiling point; it's just a fact.

I am working to make vaping better and better. By finding out what level of VG might not lead to decomposition, alternatives such as PEG-400, dry-residue-free flavorings (so not burnt on coil), suggesting a move to temperature-controlled heating, etc.

Even VG based vaping is most likely hundreds of times less toxic than smoking analogs.

Nuck · 05-03-2009, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kinabaloo

Letzin - I vape with VG although I suspect there is a slight acrolein expsure from it. It is not alarmist; it's just that the chemistry and evidence points to it. The denaturisation of VG also gunks up coils shortening their lifespan considerably. Then there's the bad taste, not pleasant even aside from health effects.

I am working t make vaping better and better.

What evidence points to the presence of acrolein? I also don't buy that atomizers lives are shortened (considerably) but am willing to keep an open mind. Do you have any real evidence of it?

You also seem to have narrowed down the bad taste to VG. How was this done?

05-03-2009, 05:37 PM	#31
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	Kate - that's interesting. After a quick look into it, the only slight worry is a low flash-point. Exo - just a petrochemical mix, available in different forms, with a range of hydrocarbons, mostly alkanes. Is used as 'baby oil' and in some fog machines, so can't be too bad (can it?) Last edited by kinabaloo; 05-03-2009 at 05:40 PM.

05-03-2009, 06:09 PM	#39
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	Letzin - I vape with VG although I suspect there is a slight acrolein expsure from it. It is not alarmist; it's just that the chemistry and evidence points to it. The denaturisation of VG also gunks up coils shortening their lifespan considerably. Then there's the bad taste, not pleasant even aside from health effects. I am not that worried about acrolein as it is also produced by some types of cooking, as is a similar toxin called acrylamide. The tests you referred to were not set up to detect acrolein. The chemistry is that acrolein will be produced when VG is raised to its boiling point; it's just a fact. I am working to make vaping better and better. By finding out what level of VG might not lead to decomposition, alternatives such as PEG-400, dry-residue-free flavorings (so not burnt on coil), suggesting a move to temperature-controlled heating, etc. Even VG based vaping is most likely hundreds of times less toxic than smoking analogs. Last edited by kinabaloo; 05-03-2009 at 06:18 PM.

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05-03-2009, 05:47 PM	#33
kinabaloo PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: london uk / beijing china Posts: 3,395	Some info on PEG 400 : "PEG - 400 is harmless towards skin ; easily soluble in water and faintly sweet in taste. This makes it an attractive ingredient in cosmetics such as creames ; jellies and lotions . PEG-400 is added to lotions intended to have a mild relaxing effect on skin . It is easily absorbed by the skin acting as solution promoter for the therapeutic agents which can be added to the lotion. It imparts smoothness to skin but does not have a strong dehydrating effect as glycerine. PEG - 400 is a superior and thermally stable heating medium than the conventional mediums , due to its higher molecular weight ; higher boiling point and specific heat." Haven't discovered the boiling point/range yet. Available in 250kg drums from: POLYETHYLENE GLYCOL

05-03-2009, 05:47 PM	#34
exogenesis ὅπερ ἔδει δεῖξαι ECF Veteran Supporting Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: UK Posts: 771	Thank Pete, maybe thats a design flaw, better initial function, poor lifetime. Certainly 901 attys I have don't have that underbridge wick stuffing, but the 510 (Titan) one's do. All comes together in a nice tight gunk-ball on the coil ? edit: I'll see if I can order some EUPharm PEG400 from Boots.

05-03-2009, 05:56 PM	#36
Kate Moved On Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: UK Posts: 7,336	There are a couple of forum threads about PEG, I don't know how useful they are: PEG a new ingredient, instead of PG and VG Polyethylene Glycol 400

05-03-2009, 06:05 PM	#38
Nuck Ultra Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,142 Tweet this post!	Given my luck with atomizers and how clean they get with a phosphoric acid bath once a month (I do no other maintenance except the odd blowout when changing flavours), and since I use pure VG almost exclusively and only drip, it is possible that the cause of a lot of the buildup that many report is the result of the cart material and the flavours. If there is a single test that produces a positive for acrolein, I'll stop using VG that day, but it seems given the recent lab reports (1 recommended VG and the other found no traces of acrolein) that VG is currently the safest option.