The Elephant In The Room ...

[kinabaloo]

Dumwaldo - it's not just about a potential ban. It's about our health and trouble-free vaping too!

You raise some interesting thoughts but I feel you underestimate the impact a ban would have. And the legal penalties and criminal labels that just might get acted on. But this is best discussed elsewhere.

[kinabaloo]

A quick note, Kinabloo.

Distillation will result in a juice that needs to be nicotine spiked AFTER, and not BEFORE the distillation.

Nicotine vapors spontaneously combust at 30c. This would make distilling the finished juice while preserving nicotine content nearly impossible. You would loose too much nicotine in the distillation.

Also, what say you to juices that don't have any dry deposits in themselves, but might degrade into dry deposits in the hot environment of the atomizer?

Additionally, there is the small matter of particulate matter from the air lodging itself into the wicking/mesh material of the atomizer. I imagine the wet sticky environment of saturated meshing would be an ideal place to catch airborne particulate matter, and the decomposition products of those air born particles in the atomizer might also present hazard, just looking at the gunk in air filters left operating in an environment for a time, we may not be able to complete eliminate airborne particulate matter lodging itself into the atomizer without a filter system, which would stiffen the drag.

Sure we cannot easily prevent dust from the air getting in, but that is probably a small matter in comparison; and doesn't mean we shouldn't eliminate what we can - the big problem: dry deposits.

It may only be the flavors that need to be pre-'distilled'. In the case of nicotine from tobacco, the specialist manufacturer that supplies the juice makers can handle the issues you raise with specialised equipment. If a non-deposit-forming type of nicotine can be post-added that would be ideal; am still researching this matter.

All three of your ponts are good ones, especially this one: "Also, what say you to juices that don't have any dry deposits in themselves, but might degrade into dry deposits in the hot environment of the atomizer?"

Exogenesis has raised the same issue by PM. My reply: "You mean some of the gunk is possibly due to degradation of volatiles in the way we know VG does just that. Of course it is possible, but I think this would elimnate most of the deposit, certainly all the dry residue. I think it will produce a very clean juice. Only one way to find out for sure ...

If there are other things degradng on the heater coil that is bad news of course. I think it unlikely, but there's no point not facing the facts." Hence some more experimentation is required. However, I expect eliminating dry-residue and VG to eliminate 95%+ of the deposit buildup, if not all (airborne dust aside).

[Vapinginjapan]

I would agree with your assessment.

I think since nicotine can be added before the flavoring process, it can be added afterwards. I don't think nicotine leaves a dry deposit on anything, because it combusts as a vapor fairly easily.

Gas spectrometry might be able to divine the exact composition of the vapors that we breathe, however i'd be fairly confident that the level of potentially toxic chemicals in the vapor we breathe is far less harmful than say, living in LA.

However, I think the ultimate solution to the problem would be a two fold solution.

Distillation of the fluids and

Combining a piezo atomizer with a heating coil. The piezo atomizer mists it, and the heating coil heats it. Since the heat of the heating coil is NOT required to vaporize said chemicals, merely bring them up to a temperature suitable to simulate the experience, we could avoid any VG degeneration issues, and probably any volatile heat degradation issues. especially if we could design a heating element with an extremely high surface area, like a mesh or grid, that would require it to operate at a lower heating element temperature to raise the vapor an equivalent amount.

This would seem to me to be an ideal solution. Assuming we could get a relatively (in the strict sense of the word, relative to the atomizer of current e-cigs) cool heating element, we could avoid heat degeneration issues while vastly extending battery life, assuming the piezo mister doesn't suck down tons of power.

[Drewsworld]

There is already a company that has created a disposable atomizer that has a mini atomizer that is the same as the 901 but much smaller that has filtering chamber between the atty and the users lips..However the initial reviews on this site were, that they were too expensive comparitively...? Oh and oddly enough, I believe they were initially developed in Japan an are manufactured in China

[kinabaloo]

I would agree with your assessment.

I think since nicotine can be added before the flavoring process, it can be added afterwards. I don't think nicotine leaves a dry deposit on anything, because it combusts as a vapor fairly easily.

Gas spectrometry might be able to divine the exact composition of the vapors that we breathe, however i'd be fairly confident that the level of potentially toxic chemicals in the vapor we breathe is far less harmful than say, living in LA.

However, I think the ultimate solution to the problem would be a two fold solution.

Distillation of the fluids and

Combining a piezo atomizer with a heating coil. The piezo atomizer mists it, and the heating coil heats it. Since the heat of the heating coil is NOT required to vaporize said chemicals, merely bring them up to a temperature suitable to simulate the experience, we could avoid any VG degeneration issues, and probably any volatile heat degradation issues. especially if we could design a heating element with an extremely high surface area, like a mesh or grid, that would require it to operate at a lower heating element temperature to raise the vapor an equivalent amount.

This would seem to me to be an ideal solution. Assuming we could get a relatively (in the strict sense of the word, relative to the atomizer of current e-cigs) cool heating element, we could avoid heat degeneration issues while vastly extending battery life, assuming the piezo mister doesn't suck down tons of power.

After some discussion with Exogenesis I am hopeful that even distilling the full juice, the nicotine would all arrive in the cleaned juice (not just the free-base part); seems both are volatile.

Heating the mist from a piezo mister would be nearly impossible. There are two better possibilities: heating the juice before it is misted (not all the juice, just as tiny an amount as possible just before it is misted, to keep down power consumption). The other is a hybrid design, but involves two juice containers (perhaps a split cart). Water would be turned to steam by a heater coil to give the warmth; the PG, flavors and nicotine would be misted; and the two combined into the air-flow.

Re toxins: I follow your reasoning re levels; but it is not all reassuring given that city dwellers die a few years earlier! If something is breathed in day after day, we really should try to get it best we can; don't want to add to the background pollution

[Gardenia]

Wish people would stop coming up with problems. Lets face it this is the best thing since peanut butter. I do not think it is anymore harmful that inhale a menthol in a vaporizer used in a room next the bed when you have a cold. Please people, vaporizers have been used for centuries for medicinal purposes. I remember my grandmother using boiling water and camphor to inhale the steam when I was a little girl. How can this be worse than tobacco smoke, tar, amonia, arsenic ect........ that is in tobacco when it is burned and inhale. Stop looking for problems in the solutions and just enjoy the freedom and health alternative.

[exogenesis]

I think we all agree about those things Gardenia ,
I think this is more a question/hope of prolonging atomizer life,
as well as reducing 'bad' things (that can be reduced) at the same time.

[kinabaloo]

Wish people would stop coming up with problems.

There's no 'coming up with' here. You can close your eyes, but the elephant is still there.

This is a very positive thread that proposes a solution to the problems we face everyday. These problems have a common cause and I'm pointing it out because there is a solution.

If I didn't believe that vaping was a 'godsend' I wouldn't be putting in all this effort to make it even better.

No more bad tastes/bad smells
No more atomizers diminishing and dying earlier
No more need to fuss so much about cleaning the atty

Juices will taste better and last longer.

Vaping will be even better than it already is.

[kinabaloo]

I think we all agree about those things Gardenia ,
I think this is more a question/hope of prolonging atomizer life,
as well as reducing 'bad' things (that can be reduced) at the same time.

I would put it much more strongly than that Exo.

This could make a huge difference in atomiser life, and avoid the gradual diminution in performance; and the taste will be greatly improved too.

And I would expect that 'trace amounts of toxins' becomes 'indetectable'.

[agga40s]

I'd just like to note that many of us know there is an elephant in the room, but we don't comment because we don't understand the elephant or the horse he rode in on.

When you start talking about gas spectrometry and piezo atomizers, my eyes glaze over. I don't have a clue what you're talking about, so I have nothing to add...and very little to gain by even reading the thread at all.

Simply from a common sense point of view, it seems to me pretty evident that e-cigs are PROBABLY less harmful to me than analogs. I don't see how they could be worse. Plus there is the side benefit of not driving all my friends and relatives crazy with the second-hand smoke and the stink. I will have to leave it to those much smarter than me to figure out how to make it risk-free. Until then, I'm content to vape and let the brains figure it out.

But yeah, I still see the elephant.