http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum The molecule that binds us all! All posts relating to addiction and the effects of nicotine on the body and mind go here en Fri, 20 Nov 2009 22:53:48 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/images/kirsch/misc/rss.jpg http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/50315-poetry.html Fri, 20 Nov 2009 20:40:43 GMT I Am Addicted I am addicted to being able to reason and remember I am addicted to being able to concentrate I am addicted to being able to... I Am Addicted


I am addicted to being able to reason and remember
I am addicted to being able to concentrate
I am addicted to being able to perform my work
Accurately, and in a timely manner
I am addicted to being able to perform my household duties
Accurately, and in a timely manner
I am addicted to being able to safely drive my car
I am addicted to being able to get along with my friends, family, and community
I am dependent on nicotine ]]> Nicotine Vocalek http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/50315-poetry.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/49021-beta-carboline-maois-towards-more-effective-e-liquid.html Sat, 14 Nov 2009 18:53:22 GMT This paper addresses the question of the often reported 'something missing', identifies the likely candidates and their modes of action, and approaches to creating a more effective e-liquid, something with enormous potential for impact on health in making e-liquid vaping an even more effective alternative/replacement for smoking.

Beta Carbolines

"β-carboline alkaloids are widespread in plants and animals, and frequently act as monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOI). ... Some β-carbolines, notably tryptoline* and pinoline, are formed naturally in the human body. The latter is implicated along with melatonin in the role of the pineal gland in regulating the sleep-wake cycle. The β-carboline can link to cerebral benzodiazepine receptors and induce inverse agonist effect."

beta-Carboline - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

( * Associated with the sleep cycle )

That last sentence is very interesting. By action on the GABA neurotransmitter that reduces some neuron excitability, benzodiazepines (Valium is an example) produces a calming, anti-anxiety effect.

( Interesting and simple link re carbolines and coffee and MAOI effect: Human monoamine oxidase enzyme inhibition by coffee and beta-carbolines norharman and harm )

Beta Carbolines, the good guys - Antioxidant properties of ß-carboline alkaloids are related to their antimutagenic and antigenotoxic activities: Antioxidant properties of {beta}-carboline alkaloids are related to their antimutagenic and antigenotoxic activities -- Moura et al., 10.1093/mutage/gem016 -- Mutagenesis

Endorphin Link

Evidence that a benzodiazepine receptor mechanism regulates the secretion of pituitary beta-endorphin in rats. Evidence that a benzodiazepine receptor mechanism ... [Endocrinology. 1985] - PubMed result

Heterocyclic Amines and Alpha Carbolines

In food processing / curing it is the heat mediated reaction of proteins (and dehydrated proteins) and carbohydrates, from which the carbolines arise; most of the products so formed in browning type cooking (over 100C) are toxic heterocyclic amines that are notorious for existing in smoke too.
playing with the curing would be a way to affect carboline levels (and HCAs in general unfortunately; a very blunt instrument); like any other product maker, will alter the product to increase sales.

In fact, alpha carbolines, the bad guys, can be 100s of times higher in cooked meat than in smoke (comparing say 100g meat to 10 cigs); Matsumoto, T. et al, Determination of mutagen amino-alpha-carbolines in grilled foods and cigarette smoke condensate. Cancer Lett. 1981 / 12 (1-2) / 105-110.

( Interesting note for chemists: "The common chemical structure of the alkaloids used in this study comprises one indole nucleus and one six-member pyrrole. According to their oxidation state, these alkaloids can be divided into two groups: dihydro-ß-carbolines (harmaline and harmalol) and ß-carbolines (harmane, harmine and harmol)" )

As I've said before, toxins in food put some perspective on the trace levels that might be found with vaping.

It has also been suggested that withdrawal from smoking can lead to the seeking out of prepared foods causing weight gain (a separate mechanism from keeping busy or loss of appetite suppression).

Indeed, it has also been suggested that food manufacturers deliberately combine sugar and proteins knowing that some beta carbolines will be produced on being cooked; but a lot more alpha carbolines and other toxic HCAs will also be produced, and the body has trouble metabolising these often destructured molecules.

Beta-carbolines and alcohol

"When acetaldehyde [an ethanol metabolite] combines with serotonin [a neurotransmitter not unlike dopamine] it produces beta-carboline. Acetaldehyde plus dopamine produces solsalinol. Solsalinol plus bet-caboline gives tetrahydroisoquinalines; these can activate the same receptors as beta-endorphins."

Alcoholism : the cause and the cure - Google Books

Alkaloids

Not a very well defined term. The -oid just means 'resemble (in shape)'; in the way we say 'cuboid' or 'humanoid'. The alk- root is a contraction of alkaline (or 'basic' as opposed to acidic).

Organic compounds that have a basic nitrogen atom (one with electron lone pairs) are called amines and the term alkaloid is usually reserved for amines found naturally in plants.

Alkaloids, like other inorganic compounds, often involve a 6-carbon ring (compounds that include this benzene ring arrangement are denoted as 'aromatic' as opposed to 'aliphatic').
Nicotine is an alkaloid, and there are many others in tobacco too. Some of these alkaloids can behave as MAOIs.

The biochemistry is complex; there are different types of MAOI that affect, to different degrees, various messengers in the brain. That is, in psychoactive terms, they would produce different effects (some more relaxing, some more stimulating; though more complex than a single axis as in this example).

Basically, the combination of nicorine and MAOI makes the effect more dramatic - faster and stronger - and has been likened to the effect of amphetamines, but milder.

MAOIs are not necessarily dramatic in effect; if i'm not mistaken, catechins are a type of MAOI (have the MAO inhibition effect); these are found in tea, and have a pleasant effect that is both relaxing and stimulating

Carboline MAOI alkaloids in food and tobacco

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and harman from foods and tobacco smoke.Herraiz T.
Spanish Council for Scientific Research, Instituto de Fermentaciones Industriales, CSIC, Juan de la Cierva 3, E-28006 Madrid, Spain. therraiz@ifi.csic.es

"Norharman and harman are two heterocyclic beta-carboline (9H-pyrido[3,4-b]indole) alkaloids with biological and potential toxicological activity that appear in foodstuffs and environmental sources. ...

The levels found of beta-carbolines were highly variable. Low processed foodstuffs (i.e. milk, yoghurt, uncooked meats and fish) did not contain norharman and harman above the detection limit. Others, however, contained relatively high concentrations (at the tens of ng g(-1) or microg l(-1) level) depending on the processing conditions as, for example, 'well-done' cooked meat and fish. The highest amounts of norharman and harman were found in brewed coffee (29-207 microg l(-1)), sauces (soy sauce and Tabasco, among others; 4-252 microg l(-1)), 'well done' cooked meat and fish (57-160 ng g(-1)), toasted bread (42-160 ng g(-1)), and fermented alcoholic beverages (n.d.-41 mug l(-1)). beta-Carbolines also occurred in a high amount in the mainstream of cigarette smoke (207-2780 ng/cigarette), which is an important contributor to daily exposure to these compounds.

Based on these results, it is concluded that the daily exposure to beta-carbolines in humans might be from tens to hundreds of micrograms, with cigarette smoke, coffee, certain seasonings, cooked foods and alcoholic beverages, in this order, being the major contributors. Many other foodstuffs might also contribute with minor amounts of norharman and harman. Foods and tobacco smoke might be potential contributors to the reported endogenous presence of beta-carbolines in humans." PMID: 15764332 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

It is interesting that the high content of carbolines in roasted coffee does not seem to be 'addictive' in to any great extent, certainly dwarfed by the satiation of something else, probably caffeine in this case. As with nicotine, overdosing is unlikely in normal use.

And the conclusion to draw is that carbolines alone, just as nic alone, is not that 'addictive'; it the combination. In layman's terms I'd say it is the ability of this combo to combine alertness with relaxed well-being.

This is not maybe unheard of without psychopharma intervention. What psychologists refer to as 'good stress' (enjoyable) could well elucidate this same combo (physiologically too) - I'm gonna call it 'performers high'. More similarity of effect than similarity biochemically, perhaps.

The MAOI effects of beta carbolines (harman, norharman, anabasine (acetylcholine receptor agonist and close relative of nicotine), anatabine) and nornicotine (a secondary tobacco alkaloid that is produced by the N-demethylation of nicotine) are likely the key cofactor in the physiological effects of smoking and represent the 'something missing' from e-liquid vaping. The calming effect due to higher dosage levels of nicotine (initially stimulating, then relaxing) combined with direct action of the beta carbolines (besides MAO inhibition).

"At higher doses, nicotine enhances the effect of serotonin and opiate activity, producing a calming, pain-killing effect. Nicotine is unique in comparison to most drugs, as its profile changes from stimulant to sedative/pain killer in increasing dosages and use." (Wikipedia)
I propose that the MAOIs are needed to reach the calming stage (carbolines and maybe others).

PET scans do show some activity suggesting activation of other pathways (such as endorphin release), but these are likely secondary in my current estimation.

Patents granted related to MAOIs for improved NRTs

United States Patent 6,350,479
Williams , et al. February 26, 2002

United States Patent 6,569,470
Williams , et al. May 27, 2003

United States Patent 6,929,811
Williams , et al. August 16, 2005

Beta Carboline sources

Carbolines can be synthesised in the lab; there has been a lot of investigation of this due to their potential for a wide variety of pharmaceutical applications.
Synthesized ?-carbolines - Patent 6872830

The chemistry is complex; it's most definetely for a lab.

Actually lots of info on the synthesis of carbolines.

Can be from amides, as in this example: A Versatile Cyclodehydration Reaction for the Synthesis of Isoquinoline and ?-Carboline Derivatives
Beta carbolines can be found in a variety pf plants, with one plant's seeds containing around 3% beta carbolines. This would be a great source for creating an e-liquid based on nicotine and beta-carbolines, rather than all tobacco alkaloids.

Notes on tobacco alkaloids e-liquid

Preparing e-liquid by removing all but the alkaloids will produce an e-liquid that can match smoking for physiological response and thereby be the most effective as a smoking alternative replacement.
It might it be worth removing any alkaloids that are non-volatile in freebase form from the final alkaloid mix, by say slow vaporisation and recondensing in an inert atmosphere. Nicotine is one of few alkaloids that are liquid at room temperature; those that are not are unlikely to vaporise.

However, most alkaloids decompose easily on heating (so the loss of the other alkaloids is likely substantial as with nicotine; but post heating the profile would resemble that gained from smoking tobacco; though might be different if switched to ultrasonic misting of the e-liquid); for this reason, this step would lose/waste too much of the useful alkaloids to remove the non-volatile ones. Other than employing evaporation rather than boiling, not sure if another way to do this.

* The 'other alkaloids' in tobacco account for about 10% of the total (nicotine 90%).

Summary

My research into carbolines was the most exciting by far, and will not likely be repeated. It has brought together insights into smoking, and more besides, that ties up so much of what I have researched previously. The importance of these findings and analysis is quite breathtaking. The details may be somewhat fuzzy but the overall scheme is well-defined. So here is a brief summary.

Carbolines are a type of alkaloid with psychoactive, and other, properties that are fairly widespread in nature. Some of the beta carbolines, in particular, have been found to have a bariety of beneficial therapeutic effects. Psychoactively, while some tend to hallucinatory effects, others, and this would include thse in tobacco, have a calming effects similar to opiates (and affecting some of the same receptor sites).

The beta carbolines in tobacco, possibly in conjunction with other alkaloids, particularly those also with MAOI activity, play a role that is both supporting of the activity of nicotine (via MAOI activity), and possibly a secondary more direct role on their own. Together, the synergy of MAOIs plus nicotine, plus additional mild, opiate-like activity, provide the unique features of tobacco smoke on human psychology (mild alertness coupled with mild relaxation).

Previous research, mostly un-noted, suggests that beta carbolines are likely the key alkaloids responsible for the 'something missing' experienced with nicotine alone. Others' extractions of beta carbolines from beta carboline rich sources is a strong indicator that this is indeed on the right lines, given the similarity of color of that extraction with the recent tobacco extraction noted in this thread.

Clues led to the nature of harmful toxins called heterocyclic amines (HCAs) in cooked and processed foods. These are created by the action of heat on micxtures of carbohydrates and proteins/dehydrated proteins. One type of HCA is carbolines. While some of the carbolines will be beta carbolines, others will be toxic alpha carbolines. In general most HCAs are bad news. The levels in cooked foods can be far higher than even those found in cigarette smoke (cigarette smoke contains many other toxins too though).

Nevertheless, the existence of some beta carbolines among the generally toxic HCAs is quite likely a reason why there is an 'addiction' to processed and fast foods beyond ease and sweet taste. From a health perspective, an 'addiction' to food that contains high levels of HCAs (and other similar heat induced toxins), and that are also often devoid of significant nutritional value, is serious matter, whose effects are becoming ever clearer.

Ethanol is primarily a 'downer', with the 'high' attributed to preferential slowing of the frontal cortex creating lowered social inhibitions. But there is likely more to it than that, and once again beta carolines might play a key role.

Indeed, I am proposing that beta carbolines play a key role in a broad range of pharmacologically mediated 'addictictiveness', primarily through a mild stimulation of the opiate mediated reward system, and particularly strongly when combined with nicotine and other MAOIs in smoking, with an endorphin release also involved.

In the context of smoking, the inclusion of beta carbolines - and indeed, the whole family of alkaloids found in tobacco - will ensure the best possible efficacy for smoking replacement products. It is almost impossible to over-stress the importance of this point.

E-liquid that has the other alkaloids prsent is likely to be more effective not only for more people in replacing tobacco smoking, but also reduce consumption of nicotine (and the carrier PG etc) by being more effective at satiation.

I look forward to seeing blind studies comparing the effectiveness and consumption levels of normal e-liquid, full spectrum alkaloid e-liquid and nicotine plus beta carbolines.

The extraction of full spectrum alkaloids from tobacco would be easier than just nicotine as isolation of the alkaloids would likely be a step in isolating just nicotine. However, without some kind of 'harm reduction umbrella' statutory-wise, suppliers might be loathe to market a 'natural extract of mixed alkaloids'. But if the FDA and others wanted to show a real commitment to reducing smoking, they would embrace this, offsetting any possible harm/risks with the far greater harm of not allowing it, as is routinely calculated for drugs.

(A designation of 'tobacco product' would be better than 'drug' in this regard if the opportunity here for running with the 'harm reduction' categorisation is missed.)

Testing can confirm this, but if we take the known ingredients route and add only those alkaloids that are safe and effective to pure nicotine, then the beta-carbolines found in tobacco (or some of) are the likely candidate.

All logic and real concern for health points to the pragmatic solution to an entrenched problem. Will it happen? Maybe, but it will take some bold decision making by regulators. We can simply keep putting forward the facts and in time, with public support, it might come to pass.

Experimental results will go a long way to convince, us as a community first of all, that the 'something missing' is not (just) 'enough nic', but an important co-factor.

~~~

Earlier paper on MAOIs and comparison of absorption in vaping and smoking :

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...ess-maois.html

~~~

Some notes will integrate later:

Here's what I think is going on (a small part of): the stress relief of having a smoke is two things - the satiation of the craving that builds up as levels dip after being raised, and a 'real' biochemical effect of relaxing nature (I will post shortly what I think that is). The nicotine only has mostly the former in terms of relaxation (though most of the alertness-raising effect of analogs).

First, the worry that overdosing of the other alkaloids could occur: it doesnt happen with smoking, and the presence of the nicotine will ensure people 'cut-off'; in all likelihood, better satiation will lead to less consumption; and DVap has indicated that this can indeed occur. In short, it will more probably work the other way. At the moment, many vape more and more looking for something that isn't there.

TSNAs in e-liquid are some 7000 times less than in malboro cigs; so a lot of leeway here for the possibility (and it is only that) that WTA liquid might have increased TSNA levels.

Btw, few compounds have the same property as alkaloids that allow them to pass through successive acid-alkali phases as used to extract the alkaloids.

Doesn't really matter that e-liquid is 'addictive' - or that not everyone wants to quit nicotine/alkaloids; why should they? The point is to quit smoking; that's where the harm is. And for a smoking alternative to be the most successful, it has to be effective. E-liquid is easily diluted as required, to satisfy all requirements. Some of the anti-smoking people do understand this. To make the biggest impact on reducing smoking requires safer alternatives that are as effective as possible (keep people off smokes). NRT needs to renamed something like SSA (safer smoking alternatives).
But we need to bear in mind one thing: improved efficacy will mean increased addictive potential. It's a trade-off. Something that works well, very well even, to get people off smokes, will be more 'addictive' than something less effective. However, as the addiction is only a problem because of the toxic load of smoking (there's no anti-social behaviour associated with vaping, or mental impairement), this is really a non-issue, but may need to be countered intelligently at some point.
There have been a few voices raising this issue with regard to NRTs over the years, and their fairly dismal success rate at getting people off smokes. Now we have the beginnings of real evidence to back the (pretty obvious) theory and create an alternative that is more effective.
Just as 'lights' are now seen as a mistake, nic-only e-liquid, and indeed nic-only NRTs, are a similar mistake.



A pizza, say, is not much of a pizza if it's only dough, even if that is the main part. E-liquids followed the error of NRT products in just equating smoking with nicotine. The sister alkaloids might be small in quantity, but important for the roundness. Just as seasoning makes the pizza.

The MAOIs are already in the tobacco, no need to add them; just not remove them The (more or less) perfect blend is already right there in the tobacco.

It is important to stress this point: this is not about adding anything to e-liquid. It is still about removing all the unnecessary and bad stuff from tobacco.

Just as nicotine is the predominant alkaloid (perhaps in effect too), MAOI activity is likely the major effect of the other alkaloids; but likely not the only other activity - there could be other activity taking place too, not (directly) related to dopamine but other neurotransmitters.

Alkaloids are naturally occurring chemical compounds containing basic (alkaline) nitrogen atoms. There are a very large number of alkaloids; even caffeine and capsaicin are alkaloids, and (I think) cannabinoids; nearly all the psycoactive chemicals in fact. So we are possibly looking at a dozen or so besides nicotine, acting in a number of different ways.

Extracting all the alkaloids (and nothing else) can be done to a high level of purity. So people don't get the wrong idea, this is not a less pure extraction - it is just as pure, but extracting a range rather than a single element. Can be done just as precisely.

Nicotine constitutes about 90-95% of the alkaloids in tobacco (not completely sure if this figure includes all nicotine-like alkaloids or just nicotine). So if there are others that are important, they would need to be quite powerful given their small quantities. The next three most common ones are nornicotine (~2.5%+?) and anatabine (~0.2%-4% depending who you ask; TRC | Search Results and anabasine; so the remainder would be in (very) small quantities.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-p...g&size=largest Image of introduction, with full pdf available.

also: ScienceDirect - Journal of Chromatography B : Enantiomeric analysis of anatabine, nornicotine and anabasine in commercial tobacco by multi-dimensional gas chromatography and mass spectrometry

So anatabine and anabasine might be key 'missing' alkaloids.

Anabasine and anatabine as biomarkers for tobacco use during nicotine replacement therapy

It;s possible that there would be a correlation between smokers of lights / those who inhaled little or only into the mouth and success with e-cigs, because either their intake would have been skewed more to nicotine or the overall amounts being smaller made the other alkaloids / MAOIs unimportant, or that as only a minimal effect was sought, nic alone is sufficient. Hence heavier smokers are, I imagine more dependent on the other alkaloids.

There will be some who are outside of this relationship of course, because also likely is individual differences in need for nic versus the others alkaloids, and this can hold regardless of actual dose required. ]]> Nicotine kinabaloo http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/49021-beta-carboline-maois-towards-more-effective-e-liquid.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48862-does-nicotine-abstinence-screw-up-your-life.html Fri, 13 Nov 2009 22:24:46 GMT Has giving up nicotine ever caused serious problems for you in any activities of daily living, such as job performance, driving a car, or getting... Has giving up nicotine ever caused serious problems for you in any activities of daily living, such as job performance, driving a car, or getting along with others? ]]> Nicotine Vocalek http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48862-does-nicotine-abstinence-screw-up-your-life.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48342-love-chocolate-relaxing-stress-relieving-side-alkaloids.html Wed, 11 Nov 2009 07:49:18 GMT First of all, I should say that the biochemistry is complex so any discussion involves a certain level of over-simplification. *Melatonin and... First of all, I should say that the biochemistry is complex so any discussion involves a certain level of over-simplification.

Melatonin and Histamine

Melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine) and Histamine are important regulators of the sleep cycle (among other things), critical for well-being. It is quite possible that the MAOI effects of particular alkaloids in tobacco / WTA have their appreciated effects mediated by these amine neurotransmitters / hormones. There is much scope for research here. (ps: histamine plays a role in regulating physiological function in the gut - not a pun really Kurt, the gut is arguably the foundation for good health.)

A little 'big idea'

I have been nudging the idea that nicotine is on the stimulatory side in terms of its overall effect (noted though the idea that this may be dose dependent and will look into it). Now I wish to suggest that we look at the bigger, whole-body picture and consider that full-spectrum alkaloids might be important (desirable) for balanced effects on the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems - 'rest and digest (relaxed)' and 'alert and able' (fight or flight at the extreme).

Relaxed and alert

Stress/anxiety is a major condition for desiring a smoke - so relaxation is definitely one of the desired, and actual, effects of smoking (and, conversely, withdrawal can raise anxiety - a key withdrawal symptom).

Smoking produces the seemingly contradictory (and highly desirable) state of both alertness and calmness.

It is certainly not possible to pin simple labels like 'relaxing' and stimulating' on particular alkaloids, or even neurotransmitters, (as one can more easily do for say alcohol and caffeine) because the system in a complex interactive one. Subjectively though, there are two broadly felt effects - relaxation and stimulation. Here, I wish to ponder the relaxation side.

In part, nicotine acts similarly to adrenaline (sympathetic system), with effects on both mind and body. The heart beats faster and blood pressure increases; one feels more alert and can think faster; a result not just of increased blood flow but also increased neurotransmitter activity.

There has been some thinking out loud about what the other alkaloids, and nicotine too to some extent, provide in terms of the relaxtion side of physiological effects. While dopamine does indeed provide a sense of well-being, and nicotine raises dopamine levels and MAOI alkaloids can help boost levels further, there might well be more to relaxation effects than this.

Endorphins

The literature on endorphin release through smoking goes back decades (but is pretty thin). This is one of the possible pathways for the relaxing effect of smoking / WTA - relaxation mediated by the release of endorphins (MAOIs being involved indirectly).

Endorphins are polypeptides that interestingly are endogenous (normally in the body) opioids (bind with the various opioid receptors, which are found principally in the central nervous system and the gastrointestinal tract), that once released act like opiates such as morphine. The term endorphin is a contraction of endogenous and morphine-like; it describes any chemical with this pharmacological effect. Besides pain relief*, including 'high intensity exercise buzz' (pain control for extreme exertion), are associated with the natural high of orgasm and an effect a little like tranquilisers (tobacco as nature's vallium); also, a subtle aphrodisiac. Natural opiates are alkaloids; hence there might be actual opiates in tobacco besides activity to release endogenous ones.

Chocolate** can stimulate the release of endorphins; this amazing substance made from the beans of Theobroma Cacao also contains tryptophan (an essential amino acid that is the rate-limiting step in the production of the mood-modulating neurotransmitter serotonin, which tends to diminish anxiety), anandamide (an endogenous cannabinoid), beta-carbolines (psychoactive alkaloids) and phenylethylamine (amphetamine-like, releases dopamine in the meso-limbic pleasure-centres of the brain).

Particular alkaloids can produce a calming effect by triggering the release beta-endorphins. Thus both the dopamine and opiod systems, and how they interact, are likely important to the overall effects of tobacco / WTA.

Falling in love

Finally, and this might not be as daft as it sounds at first: I've heard endorphins described as giving a feeling akin to 'being in love'; seems to me that 'falling in love' is like an 'imprinting' whereby an endorphin rush can be strongly associated in memory with the focus of attention at the time. One remembers the ducks who will follow their 'mother' as the first living thing they see on being hatched, even if that is a human (no endorphins here (?) but the classical example of imprinting); so might the particularly strong buzzz of one's first smokes create an endorphin rush so strong that it creates a life-long love affair for the alkaloid mix (and behavioural cues) that aroused it ...

In saying this, I mean that it is not so much how smoking/vaping made you feel yesterday that keeps one smoking, but the memory of that first 'kiss'.

~~~

Btw, the way I see it, that understanding the biochemical effects of smoking has been slow is partly due to the false equation of smoking with nicotine; ignoring the other alkaloids.

* Interestingly, capsaicum can release endorphins too, perhaps via pain response.
** Interestingly, chocolate imbibers are longer lived, partly due to the copious polyphenol content that reduces the oxidation of low-density lipoproteins.

@ Article by permission of the author (kinabaloo) and Vaping Buzzz ]]> Nicotine kinabaloo http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48342-love-chocolate-relaxing-stress-relieving-side-alkaloids.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48271-nicotine-vaccine.html Wed, 11 Nov 2009 01:00:49 GMT Trial drug may help smokers kick butts - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/11/09/anti.nicotine.vaccine/index.html) No nicotine vaccine for... Trial drug may help smokers kick butts - CNN.com

No nicotine vaccine for me. ]]> Nicotine mbagdon http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48271-nicotine-vaccine.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48015-nicotines-oily-brother.html Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:36:34 GMT I was able to go several weeks using the e-cig, same as nicotine gum. Then I started getting cravings. And it's funny because both the gum and the e-cig satisfyed me at first. What seemed weird is that since nicotine is out of the system in several days, it seems that any withdraw associated with a new nicotine delivery system should have been experienced in the first couple days, not several weeks later.

So I started researching. I found this article:

THE USE AND ABUSE OF TOBACCO - Cigarettes Pedia

And if the information is accurate, it would explain my 2-3 week relapse. See, just like vitamins, water soluble materials leave the body quickly, but oil soluble materials tend to stay in the body longer.

The basic gist of the article is that uncured tobacco contains nicotine. However, when tobacco is cured there is a chemical process which produces an oil based substance called nicotinin. According to the article, nicotinin is just as poisonous as nicotine.

If this is all true, A- it explains why my cravings start at around the 2-3 week period when using any form of nicotine replacement therapy, and B- either the tobacco/phama industries aren't aware of this oil based poison, OR, they have suppressed and ignored it.

Doing a web search for nicotinin, other than the cited article, I'm not finding any information related to tobacco.

Hopefully someone else might chip in with some info, I'm not a chemist.

I know that ammonia increases nicotine availability, and that other chemicals are used to negate the harshness, add flavour, etc. But I've been smoking American Spirit ultra lights... should be additive free, and it satisfies me just fine. So, even in the absence of adulterating chemicals, it may be that CURED tobacco contains a chemical which is highly addictive, and is not contained in any tobacco replacement product.

hmm... ]]> Nicotine Rahz http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/48015-nicotines-oily-brother.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/47905-nicotine-heart-surgery.html Mon, 09 Nov 2009 03:43:12 GMT Does anyone have any info on this subject? Does anyone have any info on this subject? ]]> Nicotine clear_blue27 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/47905-nicotine-heart-surgery.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/47627-nicotine-flavors.html Sat, 07 Nov 2009 17:57:10 GMT Perhaps this has been mentioned here before, but I haven't seen it. Lots of discussion about nicotine absorption, but what about flavor interactions? A lot of vitamins and drugs (and herbs, and foods) interact with each other to enhance or detract from the bodies absorption thereof.

I swear I feel a difference between vaping the 24mg Arctic Mint vs. the 24mg 555 and both are from the same source. I like the flavor of the mint better, but was really craving analogs, and swapped out for the 555, which seemed to sooth the nerves. And no, it doesn't taste much like my reds. ]]> Nicotine treelvr http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/47627-nicotine-flavors.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/47322-synthetic-nicotine-there-really-such-thing.html Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:30:15 GMT An interesting discussion started in the SE thread regarding synthetic nicotine. So, I went to Johnson Creek and asked about synthetic nicotine as I... An interesting discussion started in the SE thread regarding synthetic nicotine. So, I went to Johnson Creek and asked about synthetic nicotine as I have been unable to find any real information regarding synthetic nicotine actually being used in the eLiquids.

There were many more great posts and I do hope that those who had things to share will come and post their thoughts here, as it is an interesting discussion... Is there really such a thing as Synthetic Nicotine?

Official response via writing from Christian Berkey at Johnson Creek...

Most studies regarding synthetic nicotine were conducted in the 60's and 70's by tobacco companies looking for a way to add nicotine on the manufacturing level instead of on the agricultural or botany level. Purely synthetic nicotine is made with a combination of Niacin, Ethanol, Sulfuric Acid and a few other nasty chemicals. When adjusted for inflation, the cost of the process is prohibitively expensive when compared to modern extraction methods. Additionally, we've never seen research indicating a feasible pharmaceutical grade product - industrial grades only. While modern technology may allow for additional resolution steps, we believe the cost has kept it from being seriously pursued. That combination of high cost and more importantly low quality makes it a presently unacceptable option for Johnson Creek.

While additional research may have been done, we've never seen published works stating so. To our knowledge, there is currently no firm offering a synthetic pharmaceutical grade nicotine.


Extracted nicotine, regardless of plant origin, processed to pharma grades, is technically not synthetic. This pharma or "pure" nicotine is used in our products. Other pharma forms of nicotine, such as nicotine polacrilex, undergo a similar process but undergo specific bonding for use in products like nicotine gum, etc."

Please let me know if there is additional information I can provide. Please also feel free to post this.

Kind Regards,

Christian Berkey
Chairman & CEO
Johnson Creek® Enterprises, Inc.
]]> Nicotine LaceyUnderall http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/47322-synthetic-nicotine-there-really-such-thing.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/46490-taste-nicotine-eliquids.html Sun, 01 Nov 2009 03:45:14 GMT I've been vaping for about a month now. The supplier I bought my ecig from doesn't carry Nic juices, so I bought samples of no nic juices. Most of these juices taste good. A couple of weeks ago I received a couple of bottles of Menthol with nic in them. I tried these and found that they tasted terrible. I thought that maybe it was the Menthol. I ordered more nic juices from another company. This week I finally got my nic juices at 26mg. I wanted the nicotine so I can totally get off the analogs. Now I find that these juices taste almost as bad as the menthol ones. I haven't read anywhere about anyone mentioning that nic juices had a different taste than non nic juices. I haven't seen anything about nicotine juices tasting bad. I bought a lot of juice, having no idea that they would taste bad. They taste so bad, that I cannot use them. Now I am stuck with 15 20ml bottles of nic juice I can't use plus the 2 30ml bottles of Menthol I can't use. Is it me, or is it the nic in the juices that makes them taste so bad? I talked to someone from the company I bought my order from and he thinks it is the nicotine in the juice that gives it that taste. He suggested that I should try cutting it with no nic PG. I did this mixing half and half making it 12mg nic and it's just as bad. I tried this with 2 different flavours. Menthol and capaccino. The juices don't even taste anything like what flavor is on the bottle. All I can taste in all of the flavors is this terrible taste. They all taste the same with the exception of the Watermelon flavor. It is not as bad for some reason. But I can still taste that taste somewhat. I don't understand. Could I have a bad batch of juice, or are all the nic juices like this. Are my tastebuds so different than others? I haven't seen anyone else complaining about this problem. I don't know if I should try getting some nic juice from another company to compare. I've already spent a fortune on the juices I already have. I'm very disappointed, since I was counting on using the nic juices to get off the analogs. Now what? I'm at a loss. Someone answered my post in the Health, Breathing & Emphasema thread and said they haven't found any difference in taste between the nic juices and the no nic juices. Is this true and I have a bad batch? Has anyone else had this problem. Does anyone find a difference in taste between nic juices and non nic juices???? :confused: ]]> Nicotine samysam1313 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/46490-taste-nicotine-eliquids.html http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:05:17 GMT nicotine quitters and nicotine swappers.. which camp are you in... i have been reading stuff lately that is suggesting e cigs are pretty useless... nicotine quitters and nicotine swappers.. which camp are you in...

i have been reading stuff lately that is suggesting e cigs are pretty useless nicotine delivery systems.. they are nothing much more than placebos..

does this make me happy.. no it bloody dosnt.. is it true.. i hope not..

have i been conning myself for the last eighteen months.. if so does this make me feel happy.. nope it just makes me feel pretty stupid.. i dont like being sold lies even when its me thats doing the selling..

nicotine is a mind altering drug.. i take the stuff with the deliberate intentions of altering my mind i think it makes me a better person..

it makes me kinder and more tolerant to others.. it calms me down when i need calling down.. it makes me concentrate and think better when i need to do this..

sooo are e cigs giving me the drug i want or are they not... assuming the liquid is really what it says it is and 36 mg really does contain 36 mg or thereabouts of the drug i need.. i know its going into my body in reasonable quantities.. But..

is it getting to the parts it needs to.. and if it isnt what the hell is happening to it..

it seems nicotine quitters are happy with the suggestions e cigs dont work only as placebos.. they are happy to be fooled or to fool themselves into whatever desired result they want to achieve.. it seems some people are pretty easy to fool.. are they happy with this.. it seems so..

am i... jeesh no i aint.. big style i aint.. he he he

just to finish off.. i dont want a "high" or a "buzz" from the mind altering drug we call nicotine.. what i want is a little more basic.. i want something that improves my thinking ability and tempers the less pleasant parts of my personality.. in short i want (need) something that make me a better more tolerant clear thinking person..

trog ]]> Nicotine trog100 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/44958-so-we-getting-we-not-nicotine.html