Please keep up the FDA comments everybody!
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    Default Please keep up the FDA comments everybody!

    I was reading through the comment docket and happened across this:

    "Would a cigar or e-cigarette look any different to you in the mouth of your 6 year old?"



    On the positive side, I am running across many, MANY comments from vapers and supporters!

    Please keep commenting everybody! We need our numbers and our strong words to counteract these ignorant minds!
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    "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." Doctor Who

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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonpuff View Post
    I was reading through the comment docket and happened across this:

    "Would a cigar or e-cigarette look any different to you in the mouth of your 6 year old?"



    On the positive side, I am running across many, MANY comments from vapers and supporters!

    Please keep commenting everybody! We need our numbers and our strong words to counteract these ignorant minds!

    You know the old saying " Sticks and stones may break my bones but words shall never harm me" Well what we need to do is replace the sticks and stones with MONEY. By striking them in the heart and eliminating smoking all together think of how much damage we as VAPERS would do. This is why I talk to as many Smokers as I possibly can. And do my very best to convert them to VAPING. Instead of sitting in my car vaping I will stand beside it and vape up a storm. I get all kinds of reactions so just be prepared to answer the questions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rlrick View Post
    You know the old saying " Sticks and stones may break my bones but words shall never harm me" Well what we need to do is replace the sticks and stones with MONEY. By striking them in the heart and eliminating smoking all together think of how much damage we as VAPERS would do. This is why I talk to as many Smokers as I possibly can. And do my very best to convert them to VAPING. Instead of sitting in my car vaping I will stand beside it and vape up a storm. I get all kinds of reactions so just be prepared to answer the questions.
    I agree, but FDA personnel are not watching you vape outside your car (I hope ). They are asking for comments on the deeming regulation, and I think it's best to make sure we outnumber the anti-vaping posts like the jack hole I quoted above, because it's people like him who are saying what they want to hear. If our numbers are not overwhelming enough, those are the people the FDA will listen to. Then many of us will be stuck putting our money right back into the pockets of tobacco companies for their crummy e-cigs, and I do not want to see that happen...

    "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." Doctor Who

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    I ran out of things to say, so I started reading some of the negative comments about e-cigarettes. You can screen out the cigar comments by running a search for "e-cigarettes" or "electronic cigarettes."

    I've spent most of my day commenting on the negative comments. [EDIT: I need to get a life]. Here's one of mine:

    A Ph.D should document his "facts." It never ceases to amaze me that some PhDs make statements of alleged "facts" which can be disproved with a one minute Google search.

    1. "Nicotine is a very toxic substance..." And therefore, what? That can be said of many common household and garden products, all of which have appropriate warning labels and which nobody opposes for e-liquids. The highest concentration of nicotine in e-juice I've seen is 36mg/ml. I've spilled it on myself several times and it hasn't even caused a rash, much less "accidental poisoning." And it's highly soluble in water, so it's easily rinsed off. Out of all the millions of people using e-cigarettes all over the world for a number of years, there is not a single reported instance of a fatal accidental poisoning and only a minuscule number of reports involving any degree significant harm. For example, in the UK, where there are an estimated 2 million e-cigarette users, there were only two reports involving children suffering symptoms lasting more than a few hours and none with permanent ill-effects. E-cigarette poisoning figures soar as vaping habit spreads across UK | Society | The Guardian

    Phone inquiries to poison control centers are not documented cases of poisoning, although one would never know that from reading sensationalist headlines. If we were to over-regulate everything that might harm children, then adults will all be forced to live in padded cells.

    2. "Nicotine is highly associated with the development of physical dependence..." Actually it isn't. Nicotine in combination with all the many other substances in combustible tobacco is associated with physical dependence. There has not been a single study done on humans showing that nicotine alone produces significant dependence. Is Nicotine Addictive ? The animals it's been tested on don't show signs of significant physical dependence. People using nicotine gum don't develop significant physical dependence, nor do people using patches, inhalers and lozenges. I feel reasonably sure that that FDA knows these things, as it has approved these products for long term use as smoking cessation aids. The absurd analogy comparing electronic cigarettes to EDIT: the prevalent cash crop in Afghanistan casts a dark shadow over every other undocumented statement this gentlemen has made.

    3. "Although e-cigarettes do not release second-hand combustion products at a level equivalent to smoked tobacco.." What was that again? E-cigarettes do not release ANY level of combustion products. And the claim that e-cigarettes "release significant amounts of nicotine in exhalations" is false. Peer reviewed studies have NOT detected significant levels of nicotine in the air from the use of e-cigarettes, even in enclosed, unventilated rooms. Here is a link to one such study: http://clearstream.flavourart.it/sit...CSA_ItaEng.pdf
    That study concluded, "5 vapers using e-cigarettes for 5 h in a small room without renewal of indoor air do not produce
    detectable levels of nicotine in the air."
    Last edited by bigdancehawk; 07-26-2014 at 08:14 PM.
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    Here's another one of my attempts at rebuttal:

    Well, then this person's work in the field of "asthma education" should have educated herself to the fact that propylene glycol is used in asthma inhalers.

    There is no evidence that non-smokers are becoming addicted to e-cigarettes. Rather, as thousands of comments here demonstrate, e-cigarettes are a relatively safe and effective way for smokers to become UNADDICTED to their infinitely more harmful smoking habit.

    And I pity the FDA employees who are supposed to wade through comments like that one. You'd think these commentators would at least have the courtesy to hit the return key once in awhile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdancehawk View Post
    I ran out of things to say, so I started reading some of the negative comments about e-cigarettes. You can screen out the cigar comments by running a search for "e-cigarettes" or "electronic cigarettes."

    I've spent most of my day commenting on the negative comments. Here's one of mine:

    A Ph.D should document his "facts." It never ceases to amaze me that some PhDs make statements of alleged "facts" which can be disproved with a one minute Google search.

    1. "Nicotine is a very toxic substance..." And therefore, what? That can be said of many common household and garden products, all of which have appropriate warning labels and which nobody opposes for e-liquids. The highest concentration of nicotine in e-juice I've seen is 36mg/ml. I've spilled it on myself several times and it hasn't even caused a rash, much less "accidental poisoning." And it's highly soluble in water, so it's easily rinsed off. Out of all the millions of people using e-cigarettes all over the world for a number of years, there is not a single reported instance of a fatal accidental poisoning and only a minuscule number of reports involving any degree significant harm. For example, in the UK, where there are an estimated 2 million e-cigarette users, there were only two reports involving children suffering symptoms lasting more than a few hours and none with permanent ill-effects. E-cigarette poisoning figures soar as vaping habit spreads across UK | Society | The Guardian

    Phone inquiries to poison control centers are not documented cases of poisoning, although one would never know that from reading sensationalist headlines. If we were to over-regulate everything that might harm children, then adults will all be forced to live in padded cells.

    2. "Nicotine is highly associated with the development of physical dependence..." Actually it isn't. Nicotine in combination with all the many other substances in combustible tobacco is associated with physical dependence. There has not been a single study done on humans showing that nicotine alone produces significant dependence. Is Nicotine Addictive ? The animals it's been tested on don't show signs of significant physical dependence. People using nicotine gum don't develop significant physical dependence, nor do people using patches, inhalers and lozenges. I feel reasonably sure that that FDA knows these things, as it has approved these products for long term use as smoking cessation aids. The absurd analogy comparing electronic cigarettes to EDIT: the prevalent cash crop in Afghanistan casts a dark shadow over every other undocumented statement this gentlemen has made.

    3. "Although e-cigarettes do not release second-hand combustion products at a level equivalent to smoked tobacco.." What was that again? E-cigarettes do not release ANY level of combustion products. And the claim that e-cigarettes "release significant amounts of nicotine in exhalations" is false. Peer reviewed studies have NOT detected significant levels of nicotine in the air from the use of e-cigarettes, even in enclosed, unventilated rooms. Here is a link to one such study: http://clearstream.flavourart.it/sit...CSA_ItaEng.pdf
    That study concluded, "5 vapers using e-cigarettes for 5 h in a small room without renewal of indoor air do not produce
    detectable levels of nicotine in the air."
    This is exactly why I've been filling up the docket with pdf attachments of scientific studies.

    The FDA knows darn well that nicotine is far less addictive when separated from the other compounds in tobacco. That's one of the reasons they approved NRTs for long term use. Otherwise, it's a moot point, because no matter how addictive nicotine is, that doesn't make it automatically dangerous. It just makes it addictive.

    I've run across a lot of people writing in the docket with advanced degrees, and those on the opposing side are generally pulling their data from smoking studies only. Their arguments don't hold water. Saying it's toxic doesn't hold water either - everything is toxic in high enough amounts.

    One of my professors at the university I recently graduated from studied nicotine and its analogues. She found that many other chemicals in tobacco, including substances like nornicotine, cotinine, and anabasine acted on cells almost exactly the same way nicotine did. That would amplify the psychoactive effects by a lot. I would link a couple of those studies to the FDA as well but I honestly don't think they're capable of reading them
    Last edited by dragonpuff; 07-26-2014 at 08:25 PM. Reason: added info
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonpuff View Post

    One of my professors at the university I recently graduated from studied nicotine and its analogues. She found that many other chemicals in tobacco, including substances like nornicotine, cotinine, and anabasine acted on cells almost exactly the same way nicotine did. That would amplify the psychoactive effects by a lot. I would link a couple of those studies to the FDA as well but I honestly don't think they're capable of reading them
    Well, they had better learn. If I were you I'd go ahead and send the links, perhaps accompanied by a brief "Molecular Biology/Pharmacology/Toxicology for Dummies" lesson.

    EDIT to add: Here's another example of my comments on comments:

    "I am 100% for more stringent regulation of nicotine products including e-cigarettes and cigars. It is very concerning to see the increase in middle and high school students that are using the e-cigarette products."

    Define "using." Are they actually "using" them or perhaps only tried them once? Kids will try almost anything. There is no evidence to indicate that adolescents who are not smokers trying to quit are taking up an e-cigarette habit.

    "The advertisement and marketing of these very addictive products appears to be geared towards creating a whole new generation of addicts and not towards helping people to quit smoking conventional cigarettes."

    There's no evidence that they are particularly "addictive," any more that patches, gum, inhalers and lozenges are addictive. Why don't we see kids lots of kids chewing nicotine gum or sucking on nicotine lozenges? They're not prohibited from buying it over the counter at the local drug store. That didn't seem to be much of a concern when the FDA approved them for sale over the counter. And I guess the advertising isn't working, because nearly all e-cigarette users are people who have quit smoking or are trying to quit.

    "As a Registered Respiratory Therapist I see the consequences of Tobacco Abuse daily and am very alarmed at the growth of the e-cigarette industry. We see patients who come into the hospital very proud of quiting [sic] cigarettes who don't understand why they are getting sicker only to find out that they are using the e-cigarettes, which are causing them to have further health issues."

    Bunk. (My scientific term for improbable anecdotes). Correlation is not causation. How about some evidence? What "further health issues"? Could it be they're sick from all the smoking they did? Maybe they're sick for some other reason. There is no evidence that e-cigarettes, which have been used by millions of people all over the world for a number of years, are causing significant health "issues."

    "The harmful consequences of these products especially upon developing bodies is not yet fully known and they are being marketed as a harmless alternative to cigarettes."

    So, would you rather have them smoking cigarettes? We DO KNOW how harmful those are. E-cigarettes aren't being "marketed as harmless." Find me one vendor who claims that. They are certainly much less harmful than conventional cigarettes. Even Mr. Zeller knows that, although I don't believe vendors are allowed to make that claim either.

    "Inhaling an oil based product of unknown quantities of irritatants [sic] into the airway is inherently a bad idea. Not knowing what is exactly in the products is especially concerning."

    "Oil based"? Now there's a scary term. Propylene glycol is used in asthma inhalers. Hospitals spray mists of it in the air to combat bacteria. It's given to lung transplant patients. It's used in stage productions to simulate smoke. If this person is a respiratory therapist, he/she should know these things. Vegetable glycerin isn't oil based. And we do know "what is exactly in the products." They contain PG and/or VG, nicotine and FDA approved food flavorings. There's no evidence that any of these substances are carcinogens and there are mounds of evidence that they aren't. That's a far cry from the thousands of toxins in cigarette smoke.
    Last edited by bigdancehawk; 07-26-2014 at 09:48 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdancehawk View Post
    Well, they had better learn. If I were you I'd go ahead and send the links, perhaps accompanied by a brief "Molecular Biology/Pharmacology/Toxicology for Dummies" lesson.
    There is a brief lesson on these subjects for dummies - it's called a 4 year university sequence in biochemistry!

    Honestly I can barely read the professor's studies myself. In the words of Marty McFly, they're "heavy." I will try to dig up some more user-friendly information on the topic though.

    I love your rebuttals! Keep it up, you're doing great! as for the "Registered Respiratory Therapist," the fact that she can't spell and doesn't know which words should be capitalized speaks volumes about her expertise in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragonpuff View Post
    There is a brief lesson on these subjects for dummies - it's called a 4 year university sequence in biochemistry!

    Honestly I can barely read the professor's studies myself. In the words of Marty McFly, they're "heavy." I will try to dig up some more user-friendly information on the topic though.

    I love your rebuttals! Keep it up, you're doing great! as for the "Registered Respiratory Therapist," the fact that she can't spell and doesn't know which words should be capitalized speaks volumes about her expertise in my opinion.
    Perhaps she is the same respiratory therapist whose hospital I'm now suing because she injected a number of patients with lethal doses of succinylcholine and/or insulin. Here, if you're curious, you can read about it: http://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=67808
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigdancehawk View Post
    Perhaps she is the same respiratory therapist whose hospital I'm now suing because she injected a number of patients with lethal doses of succinylcholine and/or insulin. Here, if you're curious, you can read about it: http://www.courts.mo.gov/file.jsp?id=67808
    What a tragedy that is horrible.

    It goes to show that not all medical personnel can be trusted...

    "The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts to fit their views... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering." Doctor Who

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