Doubts over the safety of NET E-liquids - Page 12
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Thread: Doubts over the safety of NET E-liquids

  1. #111
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    The NET's are what I'm after where ever I can find it. I vape only because they have made it unreasonable to smoke. When vaping becomes unreasonable, I will most likely start drinking...thanks CASAA and thanks big government.
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  2. #112
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    The results of Dr. Farsalinos imply that SOME NETs have SOME cytotoxicity. Not as much as smoking, but more than other flavors in general. Where exactly that toxicity comes from, as in what compounds or combinations, we do not know. It would be very expensive and time consuming to figure that out. We do not know if it is pesticides, or if there can be similar toxicity with NETs derived from organic pesticide-free tobacco. It might be intrinsic to the tobacco itself. We do not know, and I don't think we will find out soon to a level that would allow us to make worry-free NETs. I personally think it is some compounds natural to tobacco itself, but that is just my gut, nothing based on chemical facts.

    Toxic does not necessarily equate to cancer causing. And carcinogenic does not mean it kills cells. Indeed, cancer is the lack of cell death. Some toxins kill cells immediately and also disrupt the genetic mechanisms, and so can cause cancer down the line.

    If you want a black and white statement to either vape NETs or do not vape NETs, it won't come from me. If you want to be let off the hook by vaping NETs from only organic pesticide-free tobacco, I am not the one that will do this. I simply do not have the data, nor does anyone else that I am aware of. Yes, we ingest many potential toxins these days, from preservatives to artificial colorings to high-fructose corn sweetener to aspartame, with varying effects and results. Do I still vape my delicious Melange pipe tobacco essence after hearing this? No, but then I was pretty wary of that flavoring from the beginning. I used a method to make it that I felt minimized plant materials and possible bad chemicals contained therein, but I had no data to support that assumption, just a thick brown liquid that remained quite stable over many months.

    For me, if there is a doubt of the safety of a liquid, it kills much of the pleasure of using it in a juice. Vaping for me has always been about minimizing risk, not ignoring it, which is what my mindset was while smoking. But I am also not at all trying to dictate what others should vape. I just try to point out data and let people decide themselves. Right now the data says that for the NETs tested there seems to be some toxicity. Where exactly it is coming from, we don't know. Rationalizing how to remove this toxicity and still use NETs without data is conjecture at best. There are 1000s of flavors out there. I had no problem moving on to others. Plenty to keep me happy.

    As I think about it, however, the toxicity could be from simple thermal decomposition of biomolecules. As I said, this is conjecture at this point, but as a chemist it makes considerable sense to me. Natural extracts WILL have some plant molecules in them, and they would likely be unstable with coil heat, creating free radicals as well as other potentially toxic substances. This would be independent of organic growing. Not saying this is happening, but it is not unreasonable, and I wanted to throw out a scenario that could be present with any tobacco leaf, organic or not. It could happen with apple extract or any whole food extract. Decomposed sugars can have toxicity, not because it was sugar, but because the decomp products are not good on cells in general. I am very sure my NETs decomposed over time on the coil. They tended to gunk them up, and a carto would take on an almost smoky nature, which is decomposition.

    Perhaps this is the source of toxicity, and it has nothing to do with how the tobacco was grown. I have no real answers here, just thoughts based on what I know in chemistry, and the data that Dr. Farsalinos has currently.
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  3. #113
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    if smoking is like russian roulette with 1 bullet in 6 chambers, vaping NETs and WTA is like 1 bullet in a chamber with 300 empty chambers or something. it gotta be on the order of 300X or more less harmful just by the reason it is not burned to produce PAHs and nitrosamines, the true carcinogenic component.

    If people say WTA has nitrosamines, i must remind them that the hot dogs we all ate until about 5 years ago also contain nitrites that can turn into nitrosamines. and Bacon and Ham still do! Smoked salmon? oh yeah, smoked marlin definitely. Home-smoked anything....oh yes. i had some lovely hickory smoked bacon yesterday. i looked at the blackness on the edges and thought, oh well, just a little. i only eat bacon on sat or sun but not both.

    then theres BBQ. all that smoke coming off the fire and embedding right into your meat. the black lines... LOADED with carcinogenic PAHs. The body has mechanisms to detoxify even these hazardous chemicals like benzo(a)pyrene. It's when you overload your body with it by smoking or eating BBQ multiple times per week (like my neighbor)...that's when your body is overwhelmed.

    in NETs and WTA? come on
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  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by RT88 View Post
    if smoking is like russian roulette with 1 bullet in 6 chambers, vaping NETs and WTA is like 1 bullet in a chamber with 300 empty chambers or something. it gotta be on the order of 300X or more less harmful just by the reason it is not burned to produce PAHs and nitrosamines, the true carcinogenic component.

    If people say WTA has nitrosamines, i must remind them that the hot dogs we all ate until about 5 years ago also contain nitrites that can turn into nitrosamines. and Bacon and Ham still do! Smoked salmon? oh yeah, smoked marlin definitely. Home-smoked anything....oh yes. i had some lovely hickory smoked bacon yesterday. i looked at the blackness on the edges and thought, oh well, just a little. i only eat bacon on sat or sun but not both.

    then theres BBQ. all that smoke coming off the fire and embedding right into your meat. the black lines... LOADED with carcinogenic PAHs. The body has mechanisms to detoxify even these hazardous chemicals like benzo(a)pyrene. It's when you overload your body with it by smoking or eating BBQ multiple times per week (like my neighbor)...that's when your body is overwhelmed.

    in NETs and WTA? come on
    Again, we are talking about toxins, not necessarily carcinogens. They are very different. Carcinogens do not cause immediate cell death. In fact, just the opposite. What was measured was toxicity, not ability to disrupt the genetic mechanisms that allow natural cell death.

    And WTAs were not tested, just a small number of juices flavored with in-house-made tobacco extracts. That said, at least one of the naturally occurring non-nicotine tobacco alkaloids have been shown to be carcinogenic. But that is an ENTIRELY different discussion. THIS discussion is about toxicity, not cancer-causing.
    Last edited by Kurt; 10-24-2013 at 04:40 PM.
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  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
    Again, we are talking about toxins, not necessarily carcinogens. They are very different. Carcinogens do not cause immediate cell death. In fact, just the opposite. What was measured was toxicity, not ability to disrupt the genetic mechanisms that allow natural cell death.

    And WTAs were not tested, just a small number of juices flavored with in-house-made tobacco extracts. That said, at least one of the naturally occurring non-nicotine tobacco alkaloids have been shown to be carcinogenic. But that is an ENTIRELY different discussion. THIS discussion is about toxicity, not cancer-causing.
    I agree with everything except the last sentence. I considered the title to include cancer-causing concerns too although the specific info was for the toxicity study. In other words...the broader topic and a specific example. If the OP said otherwise, I missed it. Although I'm aware that's a can of worms when we consider that even our non-NET nic base is not pure (and can't be in practicality as far as I know.)

    So the reason I'm in the "fewer chemicals = better" camp, is because I include a wide range of concerns.

    That doesn't mean I'll give up BBQ either...but I only eat it a few times a year anyway. Vaping, I do all day long. So I'm concerned about all areas.

    I know you were disucssing his examples in his post.

    However, I point out to him that we vape everyday (not necessarily NETs but many probably do vape them everyday.) So his 300:1 ratio...fictitious example anyway...would have to take into account the daily vs occasional aspect that he's arguing about! So basically, he defeated his own argument for someone that uses NETs daily vs occasional BBQ eating.

    So basically, RT88, your last question " in NETs and WTA? come on" I'd answer that your own examples indicate that people using these things daily have to weigh the possible risks in their own mind precisely because they use them daily.



    Quote Originally Posted by RT88 View Post
    if smoking is like russian roulette with 1 bullet in 6 chambers, vaping NETs and WTA is like 1 bullet in a chamber with 300 empty chambers or something. it gotta be on the order of 300X or more less harmful just by the reason it is not burned to produce PAHs and nitrosamines, the true carcinogenic component.

    If people say WTA has nitrosamines, i must remind them that the hot dogs we all ate until about 5 years ago also contain nitrites that can turn into nitrosamines. and Bacon and Ham still do! Smoked salmon? oh yeah, smoked marlin definitely. Home-smoked anything....oh yes. i had some lovely hickory smoked bacon yesterday. i looked at the blackness on the edges and thought, oh well, just a little. i only eat bacon on sat or sun but not both.

    then theres BBQ. all that smoke coming off the fire and embedding right into your meat. the black lines... LOADED with carcinogenic PAHs. The body has mechanisms to detoxify even these hazardous chemicals like benzo(a)pyrene. It's when you overload your body with it by smoking or eating BBQ multiple times per week (like my neighbor)...that's when your body is overwhelmed.

    in NETs and WTA? come on
    Last edited by AttyPops; 10-24-2013 at 09:48 PM.
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  6. #116
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    Kurt and Atty, you're both right. i was off the cuff, now that i read it again i feel i've done some disservice and some good service. the 1:300 is fictitious, i think it's actually much higher. We all know there are 4,000 chems in cig smoke and how many in vape?

    And it's true there are people who vape nothing but NET and WTA and they should consider a lot more than my post. Since vapes are designed to heat the carrier fluids to vaporize at well short of the temperature of combustion, there should be much less PAHs and nitrosamines than smoking, or none. This is what i hypothesize for non-tobacco vapes. its one of the reasons i dont vape at high voltage/wattage

    the major problem we are facing here is the lack of long term data. with smoking and even swedish SNUS they have decades of user data. It will be some time before any problems with vaping are incontrovertible. Animal studies can be done, live tissue studies like this one can be done, but the latter is not for carcinogencity and the former would require doses magnitudes higher than we are exposed to because they need results in 2 to 6 months, not 10 years.

    Yet, a creative researcher could analyze a range of popular juices and isolate known carcinogens and toxins. Known meaning research on acute and chronic human studies and animal studies have already been done. That would be more valuable. then we could see the range of compounds in the vape and compare to known tox and carco data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerick View Post
    What I would like to know where do these NET suppliers get their tobacco leaves and
    if they were treated with pesticides.
    i live in ky being raised around and growing tobacco all my life. all tobacco i have ever seen is sprayed with chemicles and pesticides. i would think that after the leaves are cured out there should be no remains of that left. tobacco beds used to be sprayed with furadan. thats some real bad stuff. had there been any left i think people would have fallen over dead after one cig.
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