"freezing" juice?

[chuckie]

I guess we won't know what happens with freezing juice until someone freezes it, thaws it out 2 yrs latter and gives a report.

[RjG]

I've been doing some some Googling :-)

I't's fairly common knowledge here on the forum of Propylene Glycol's anti-bacterial properties... and PG is an antifreeze to boot!

So I was a bit curious how it could spoil at all...

I found (and was surprised) that SALMONELLA * luvs * PG. yum yum.
It ferments in PG producing acid.

Tons of stuff you buy at the grocery store is/can have salmonella on it. I remember some stuff I read when we had kids, that shopping carts are especially slimy with nasty bacteria like that. (not necessarily Salmonella, there are a couple other ones too, but I'll call it that for being a likely suspect)

So
-PG is generally bacteria resistant.
-COLD slows the growth of bacteria (not speeds it up)
-Salmonella on a surface in the fridge is not unheard of
-Nic juice jars are not vacuum sealed by any stretch

I present a guess that putting your juice in the fridge does not hurt it at all !
But putting it in a sealed environment where a particular bacteria lives, that likes to feed on it,
is a likely cause. (like locking your dog in a closet with a hamburger )


Some may say "how does it get into a sealed bottle" ?
Well, unless the bottle is pressurized or vacuum sealed - it isn't sealed.
The threads on the bottle are tight enough to keep the liquid in. Anything "smaller" (molecularly speaking) than the PG will easily crawl right through there. Bacteria are VERY small... so unless your bottles have tight rubber or silicone seals (none of mine do) it's an open door.

I'm thinking if I wash out my mini fridge with bleach prior to storing my juice in it, it will probably be ok.

Opinions?

[SharonLM]

RjG, wow. That is truly scary! Luckily the refrigerator I have mine in hasn't any food in it. Only vitamins, herbs, cough drops, e-liquid, stuff like that. But just wow!

[kinabaloo]

Good point RjG - just maybe air-tight is not bacteria tight - but i think molecules are smaller than bateria

But then again, air-tight is a relative term; it can get in in ppm over time no doubt.

To get a good seal and exclude all air, one used to pour hot wax over the liquid surface to form a prfect (?) seal. This is certainly an area to explore. Bacteria are extremely hardy and some can live in amazing extremes, eat through plastic like it was gateaux etc.

SharonLM - yes I have been thinking to mention that - many nutrients, especially oils/liquids are best kept refrigerated.

An idea of my own relating to why juices might sometimes go off is that this might not be due to bacteria (at least not always) or algae (as I proposed for the green-juice outbreak) but yeast. Yest don't like cold or high alcohol content, but VG and PG are sugar-alcohols and probably can be fermented by yeast to alcohol that can in turn degrade to acetaldehyde (vinegar taste/smell) as can happen with wine.

Yeast is wierd stuff - half plant, half 'animal' (a bit like algae but live on sugars rather than photosynthesis). If anyone has some yeast, could see if PG or VG will ferment at all.

[Kent C]

Just a debate, and some passion. I want to open my e-fridge and offer everyone an e-beer or e-choc-ice :cool:

There are some related issues worth looking at - such as whether plastic is wise for the long term (might be slightly air permeable) or leech ~~~ (forget the name, has been in the news re ready meals and babies bottles).

I'll start off with saying this is 'hearsay' and it's been so long I don't have a link available but there was a time (very much related) where I was looking into the long term storage of MYO tobacco and I did a search on the possibilities of plastic containers, because I was concerned about 'outgassing' (that's likely the term you were looking for but if not... no problem ;-)

While I don't recall the exact chemical name of what was considered 'best' I do recall that the brand names that used that type were tupperware and lock & lock:

Heritage Mint

ah... high quality polypropylene plastic and it's what the 'high quality' aspect is that I don't recall. By now there may be other products that are better or equal but that is what I found at that time. I have a few tests going on with lock & lock and the last time (and perhaps the _very last time now ;-) that I tested it the tobacco was holding up well after two years without a bit of difference in taste to 'new tobacco' of the same kind.

Again, people should take this with a grain a salt and do their own testing and research. But that might help as a starting point.

[kinabaloo]

I guess we won't know what happens with freezing juice until someone freezes it, thaws it out 2 yrs latter and gives a report.

I would estimate than no thawing would be needed. I think it would stay liquid in the average home freezer.

Freezing is not good for strawberries - the ice crystals destroy the cell walls so though taste good and are still good biochemically speaking, lose their physical shape. Can't imagine why freezing would be harmful but we just don't know.

[chuckie]

I would estimate than no thawing would be needed. I think it would stay liquid in the average home freezer.

Freezing is not good for strawberries - the ice crystals destroy the cell walls so though taste good and are still good biochemically speaking, lose their physical shape. Can't imagine why freezing would be harmful but we just don't know.

I don't even know how cold it would have to get to freeze it. Since PG is used in antifreeze I expect it's a very low temp. It's probably not possible to freeze it without lab equipment.

[crazyhorse]

PG freeze point -39 ° C.

Incidentally, PG oxidizes in the presence of heat and air to form lactic acid.

[kinabaloo]

I don't even know how cold it would have to get to freeze it. Since PG is used in antifreeze I expect it's a very low temp. It's probably not possible to freeze it without lab equipment.

This doesn't mean it's not useful, to go even colder than a fridge but uncharted territory. Interesting that Kent C mentioned that tobacco can be frozen and the nicotine comes out alive

[menthollight]

I totally respect Sun's opinion here, and appreciate that they're sharing their experience.

But we have a manufacturer and several vendors recommending refrigeration, and only one member that I'm aware of having juice go bad in the refrigerator (BigJimW said his juice is fine, and attributes the problem he had to hardware).

That's why I'd like to get more people's experiences.

Thanks for the PG MSDS info, Sun, "Store in a dry ventilated area at a temperature of 15°C to 30°C (59°F to 86°F)." I haven't researched the MSDS of nicotine, VG or various flavorings.

My storage choices are a relatively constant 40°F (refrigerator) or a greatly fluctuating room temperature of up to 106°F. So I've chosen to store at 20° cooler than MSDS rather than 20° warmer than MSDS. And my results are good so far.