PEG a new ingredient, instead of PG and VG

[MissVapor]

Did PG give you throat problems? Does PEG?

I have been using 0 nic PEG-400 for awhile with NO throat problems, but recently decided to add in some PEG WITH Nicotine (12mg) just for throat hit (2 drops a day only) and all of the sudden I have a raspy, irratated throat.

I got a sore throat with PG with nicotine and VG gave me a horrible sinus infection after 3 weeks of use along with congestion..

Overall, PEG still has the least amt of side effects..although this week I've noticed really dry eyes (not sure if that is related or not)

[skydragon]

I asked this in another older thread but this one is a little more recent so I will try here as well. Has anyone come to any conclusions? Thanks.

[chadc]

Nasty.

This exactly why it annoys the HELL out of me that everybody buys juice from the same 2 or 3 or 4 factories and sticks their own name on it. I want to KNOW what I'm buying.

TELL US WHAT YOU ARE SELLING US.



That's my opinion.... anybody agree?

I AGREE! Oh Yes I agree. It is this sort of thing that will make e-ciggs illegal. I buy my liquid from Totally Wicked and Johnson Creek. Totally Wicked has ingredient list right on the bottle. That's what I wan't and demand. I'm doing the vaping thing because it is a much healthier alternative to smoking tobacco. That is not the case if they put strange "poo" in there.

[RandomCola]

Well I just called CVS and asked for PG and they told me they had PEG, and its the same. I know its not, PEG comes in a solid form whereas PG comes in a liquid form. Looking at the chemical compounds it may just be a small difference. I have heard nothing of it being harmful to your liver - PEG is the main ingredient in Miralax and many other medications. So thats a thought.

[Greendogo]

I agree, I'd like to know the exact contents of what I'm putting into my body.

However, the government is never the place to turn for this. They put up big expensive red tape. They start to regulate an industry and it will either destroy it or hurt it, which would hurt us, the consumers, even more. Asking them to regulate E-Liquid will increase the price and will stifle helpful innovation. It's the classic slippery-slope scenario.

I'm not saying that I don't want an open-door policy, but it shouldn't be mandatory. What SHOULD happen is that a PRIVATE non-governmental organization (such as CASAA) could oversee the testing of liquids (on a voluntary basis, on the part of the e-liquid makers) either through donations from supporters, from a fee charged to the companies, or both. After the e-liquid passes some kind of test the companies could be allowed to put the CASAA's (or whatever organization is overseeing the testing arrangement) label of approval on their website and on their product.

This is a far better route to go for safety than asking the FDA government thugs for help. This way we can be responsible for our own safety and we, the direct consumers of the product, can be the ones to set the requirements for safety. The seal of approval could even have grades, so you could have a better e-liquid get a "CASAA 1st Grade E-Liquid" or "CASAA Grade A E-Liquid" logo on the side of the box or on the website and the not-so healthy, but still reasonably acceptable (for some) liquids would get a 2 or a 3. By extension, companies that follow some sort of industry standard for battery protection/ventilation or other various safety features could get a grade on that. This is not to imply that whatever organization body used for this purpose (such as CASAA) would be responsible for rating the actual device's usability and quality, just the safety of liquids and devices on a voluntary basis by the companies in question (either payed for through CASAA supporters or through fees from the companies).

Personally, I really can't stand the FDA. They are an impediment to new medicines getting through testing because you have to pay so many millions of dollars for the testing even if you aren't a large enough company. In that case you'd have to either sell your idea to a larger company or partner with them and agree to share the profits. To me the FDA is just a bully government program designed by well-meaning people but high-jacked by monopolistic corporate interests and tax-hungry congressmen. But that is a political rant I'm going off on, sorry, so please just keep my original intent of this post in mind.

Anyway, what do you guys think about establishing an independent safety agency for this burgeoning new industry? Does anyone know if the CASAA or ECA have thought about doing something like this?

[mrjaguar]

PEG is Radiator Fluid
NOT GOOD

hmm, I was under the assumption that radiator fluid was diethelyne glycol.


now I understand the want to know what we're putting into our bodies, but come on.. we smoked analog cigs for how many years?? how many of you actually KNOW whats in real cigarette smoke? I know it's something like 4000 other chemicals. come on.. do you actually know whats in your food? in your candy? it's good to be informed, but sometimes it's just not feasible to know what we are ingesting.. if you want to know whats in what because youre allergic, then cool. I like to know for quality and flavors sake.. I don't like the dekang flavors much, so I try to avoid those flavors.
ok.. nuff blabbing from me.

[candre23]

They put water in antifreeze too. Does that mean you shouldn't drink it?

Honestly, I don't know any better than anybody else here whether or not PEG is safe. Of the three options, the only one that has been tested safe for inhalation is PG. It's been used in asthma inhalers and fog machines for decades, so if there was a serious problem with it, we'd know by now. The key point is that just because a chemical X is used in product Y and product Y is dangerous, it doesn't necessarily mean that chemical X is dangerous.

Maybe PEG and VG are just as safe as PG. The only way to know for sure is to either wait a few decades and see if vapers' heads start imploding from using it. That, or a series of peer-reviewed large-scale medical studies of the sort that new drugs go through. Even that would take a few years and several million (probably tens of millions of) dollars. Why do you think drug companies charge an arm and a leg for chemicals that cost only a few pennies to actually manufacture? Drug studies are expensive, but every new drug has to go through them. I'm all for e-juice going through these studies, since it's pretty obvious that PG at least will pass. The problem is, who's going to pay for it?

[PVPuff&Stuff]

Here you go - challenge to resellers. TELL US WHAT YOU ARE SELLING US.

Repeat sales come from service, quality, and prices.... that's the magic formula.

Not by having the "coolest" name on your "top secret" juice. That's just wrong.

That's my opinion.... anybody agree?

Challenge accepted.

All the hardware offered on my site is made by Joye. I've had the opportunity to buy others, and have passed.

All the liquid offered on my site is made by Dekang. Also had the opportunity to buy liquid labeled as Dekang for a lot cheaper. Passed. The way I look at it may be pretty simplistic, but it should fit. Dekang is the largest manufacturer of e-liquid on the planet. They have the most to lose if their product is found dangerous. I sent a message to my contact to ask her specifically if there was PEG in Dekang liquid. Last time I asked her, I was purchasing PG liquid. I don't expect that will change, but I'll update if it does.

In addition, Dekang released a declaration stating that their liquid was not one of the ones used during the FDA "testing".

I don't alter any of these products in any way. They are sent to you in the same condition I get them. No bathtub lab at Valley Vapor.

Dave

[Rocketman]

Dave,
don't you think it would be OK to buy DeKang juice, and the empty bottles and remix and sell online if the bathtub was clean? And most of the other ingredients (99% of them) were pure?


Rocket
(and of course I am being factitious, glad you passed)

[matt_2250]

Here's some info on inhaling glycols...

3w's.ultratecfx.com/approvals/PDF/cohen.pdf

It's dated 1997 btw.

Our review of available information has led us to recommend, pending further investigation, the following levels as interim or working limits. The concentrations are believed to represent average airborne concentrations to which nearly all healthy individuals may be exposed without adverse health effects, either in the short term or long term. The concentrations are also believed to be readily achievable in theatrical productions without compromising the intended aesthetic goal.

Glycol Recommended Limit
Triethylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Diethylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Monopropylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Dipropylene glycol 10 mg/m3
Glycerin 10 mg/m3
1,2- and 1,3-Butanediols 10 mg/m3
1,4-Butanediol 1 mg/m3
2,3-Butanediol 5 mg/m3

All recommended limits are proposed as 8-hour time-weighed averages for the chemical in either the vapor or aerosol state. The abbreviation mg/m3 denotes milligrams of the chemical per cubic meter of air.

My analysis of this... and somebody point out my mistakes please goes like this...

volLiquid = 0.6mL
numInhales = 180
liquidPerInhale = 0.6mL / 180 = 0.034mL
inhaleVol = 3L
glycolConcentration = 0.034mL / 3L = 0.000034L / 3L = 0.0113mL/L

Since 1L = 0.001m3, we're getting 11.3mL of liquid / m3....
I have no idea how much the liquid weighs per mL, I'll just assume its the same as water. Also I'm assuming the liquid is 100% glycol too.

mgGlycolPerML = 1

So... volLiquid / numInhales / inhaleVol * 1000 * mgPerML = 11.3mg / m3

Of course, if glycol is 50% heavier than air, we're looking at nearly about 17mg/m3...


Anyway, hope thats of interest (and not completely wrong lol)

Other References

3w's.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes
3w's.bestecig.com/products.asp?bid=9&sid=36