Why quit?

[NerdyCinderella]

Originally Posted by NerdyCinderella

Dumb question: what are snus?

Nevermind, I just googled it. Thanks and really good nite this time to everyone.

[Machina]

Originally Posted by TropicalBob

Trog, you're right on extended use of propylene glycol. I don't know any researcher sounding a warning on inhaling it, but certainly there are no extended studies on this simply because no one has ever inhaled it multiple times daily for a long period. We've expressed concerns about that here many times. We are the guinea pigs for PG inhalation.

Nicotine has some well-known pluses. It's even used for ADHD now. In the brain, it triggers the release of serotonin and dopamine, which are your "feel good" chemicals. It also triggers releases from the liver and pancreas -- which are not good and lead to later problems with those organs. That's in addition to what it does to your heart rate, blood pressure and arterial constriction. Surely no one would argue that for the average person, using nicotine is a good thing overall. It isn't.

But we're a lot better off getting it from e-smoking than from inhaling tobacco smoke. My real question: Would I be safer getting it from puffing my pipe or using Swedish snus all day?

Well PPG isn't exactly healthy for you. From what I can find it's used in anti-freeze, and has warning for when handled because it quickly penetrates the skin, among other things.

But then again PPG is close to PEG (polyethylene glycol) and PEG is commonly used as a solvent for plenty of things that are in injectable pharmaceuticals.

So while I think it might not be great for you, there are no cases of overdose I can find and it's a hell of a lot safer than the crap they put in cigarettes.

I would compare nicotine to caffeine almost as far as its widespread use goes. More dangerous, sure, but it falls in that same group, at least for me.

Might be interesting though; nicotine is deadly if it is handled directly or in large quantities. So if these e-cigarettes go mainstream, the liquid used goes as well and now you have the general public able to directly handle possibly dangerous levels of nicotine.

[quirky]

The public already handles dangerous levels of nicotine in cigarettes. The public also handles dangerous chemicals every day in the medicine chest and cleaning closet. Not to mention gasoline, solvents, drain cleaners and on and on. The key is that all of these products come in child safe packaging, have appropriate warning labels and directions on proper use.

If anyone cares to mention that e-liquid has a sweet taste and is, therefore, more dangerous than the average chemical, might I point out that nico gum and lozenges also have a sweet taste and are not sold in child safe packaging. Lets hope good sense prevails.

[TropicalBob]

Quirky, I get your point, but there's a big difference. The amount of nicotine in the tiny 4ml vials of E-Liquid (at the 24mg strength I ordered) is sufficient to kill an adult almost two times over. We're talking a thimble-full. You couldn't get that much nicotine if you chain-smoked cigarettes non-stop. You'd have to simultaneously chew 24 pieces of the highest-strength Nicorette gum to get that much. E-Liquid is deadly poison in amounts beyond drops and let's not kid ourselves about the danger. Used as directed ... it's not dangerous to much beyond our blood pressure. But if a child or pet consumed the contents of a vial, we're talking front page news.

[baconbits]

Originally Posted by TropicalBob

Quirky, I get your point, but there's a big difference. The amount of nicotine in the tiny 4ml vials of E-Liquid (at the 24mg strength I ordered) is sufficient to kill an adult almost two times over. We're talking a thimble-full. You couldn't get that much nicotine if you chain-smoked cigarettes non-stop. You'd have to simultaneously chew 24 pieces of the highest-strength Nicorette gum to get that much. E-Liquid is deadly poison in amounts beyond drops and let's not kid ourselves about the danger. Used as directed ... it's not dangerous to much beyond our blood pressure. But if a child or pet consumed the contents of a vial, we're talking front page news.

I'm wondering about the reports where people said the liquid came through the e-cig into their mouths.
What if too much comes out and u swallow it 0_0

[trog100]

nicotine has very short half life.. eight minutes i think.. it dosnt build up in the body.. so getting too much and being daft enough to swallow it all in one go isnt likely..

but you could equally say what happens if u light a match while filling your gas tank.. ???

there are more ways to easily kill ourselves in day to day life than we realize.. one more remote possibility aint gonna make much difference..

trog

[TropicalBob]

Differentiate nicotine here. The amount we inhale with each puff using the strongest available commerical liquid is less than the amount a single puff on a normal cigarette produces. Not dangerous, in other words. The stuff in the bottle is another story. It's a dangerous health hazard in very small amounts.

Dr. Loi warns of contact dermatitis from getting it on his hands. If it gets in the mouth, the natural urge is to spit it out. Do so and rinse out your mouth. You might still feel a burn from it. Dr. Loi and others suggest wearing gloves when handling the bottles of e-liquid.

In exploring ways to use it, it was tried as both a patch and a diluted nasal spray. The patch wasn't a success and the nasal spray produced inflammation and infection of the nasal passages within a week of onset of use. It can be used safely only one way -- vaporizing it into minute amounts safe for inhalation.

I think the jury will be out for awhile on whether concentrated nicotine, aside from use as a pesticide, is just one more danger we'll accept and look the other way on. As RuyanAmerica says on its web site: the FDA has not evaluated our e-smoking yet.

[quirky]

Never the less, a child does not know the difference between nic gum or lozenges or candy. An unattended child could consume - enough to kill in short order. Bottle or no.

Let me tell you why I know this - back in the day there was a laxative called Exlax and it was sold in chocolate flavor.
My mother kept some on top of the fridge. She did not know that at 3 I could climb onto the counter and reach the top of the fridge. I would eat a lot of moms exlax and had constant diarrhea. That was not a lot of laxative for a child. But my "habit" just about killed me as I failed to absorb nutrients, dehydration and lost a lot of weight. No one could figure out why I as failing to thrive. Eventually we moved and the exlax got stored somewhere I could not find. I did not die It is a hilarious story now. But it could have turned out very differently.

My point is that danger is every where. Proper packaging, and adult vigilance can not be substituted.
It is NOT the drug that is the problem. It is misuse and mishandling that is the problem.

[TropicalBob]

I'm with you right up to the last sentence. That one sounds like "Guns don't kill people. People kill people."

Your friendly government probably won't outright ban nicotine and its products. There's this lesson from Prohibition to remember. But there will likely be bans on its delivery (already happening), its availability via import (that would be a snap to mandate), and its concentrated strength. At some level, it's a hazardous chemical. No one has yet set that level into law. But someone will as soon as e-smoking comes under the magnifying glass of bureaucratic eyes.

We can hope the tilt goes to regulation, rather than an outright ban. Still, you just know that the only far-out possibility is that government shrugs and lets the free market do its thing. That won't happen because of pressure from health fanatics and from both Big Tobacco and Big Pharmaceutical. None of them make money with this. All of them come out losers. The arguments on our forum center around its healthy aspect, and I certainly e-smoke for that reason. But, sadly, improving health won't be a consideration with so much money at stake from 46 million American smokers looking to quit under pressure from new bans. The opposite argument will likely be used: Nicotine is a highly addictive drug that poses health hazards to its users. Restrict it.

Short story of where we are today: I went to order some tobacco product online the other day, to a shop I've used before. Only this time, a notice on the Web site said no more online orders can be filled. An insurance company had told the shop owner that the insurance would be dropped if online orders continued, on the possibility that someone under 18 might order and violate the law, resulting in a costly criminal mess.

[Machina]

Originally Posted by quirky

The public already handles dangerous levels of nicotine in cigarettes. The public also handles dangerous chemicals every day in the medicine chest and cleaning closet. Not to mention gasoline, solvents, drain cleaners and on and on. The key is that all of these products come in child safe packaging, have appropriate warning labels and directions on proper use.

If anyone cares to mention that e-liquid has a sweet taste and is, therefore, more dangerous than the average chemical, might I point out that nico gum and lozenges also have a sweet taste and are not sold in child safe packaging. Lets hope good sense prevails.

It's different though, nicotine is absorbed readily through the skin with it's suspended in PPG, and it takes a very small amount to kill you. The only thing close to it I can think of is handling powdered clenbuterol, where mcg (micrograms) can kill you and required gloves and a respirator to work with.

It's not like a kid needing to eat a whole bottle of Tylenol or drinking a whole bottle of cough syrup, they could spill a bottle of e liquid on their hand and be in trouble.