wire wool?

[Terraphon]

That's a good question...I'm tempted to say "no" but...If the carbon is broken down to the point that the isopropanol isn't overwhelmed, that very well may work.

[kinabaloo]

Carbon is very inert. You cant dissolve it or hardly react with it. Might be possible to break it off, but likely not effective as chance of damaging the wire. The focus should be on where it comes from and what else is produced during the reactions/breakdowns that we are inhaling.

[Terraphon]

Carbon is very inert. You cant dissolve it or hardly react with it. Might be possible to break it off, but likely not effective as chance of damaging the wire. The focus should be on where it comes from and what else is produced during the reactions/breakdowns that we are inhaling.

uuhm.

Well.

We have had great success removing it from atomizers with cola soaks...Many posters have reported that atomizers which were useless are restored to 100% after a good RC bath.

The phosphoric acid / carbonic acid combination makes one hell of a carbon remover.

We also know that isopropanol is solvent to carbon as a nonpolar.

We KNOW where it comes from, in my opinion. I think I've demonstrated that e-liquids form carbon deposits when they are vaporized. Those deposits seem to be worsened by VG.

So...I don't think the issue, anymore, is why. I think the issue is how to control the issue.

Also, as far as what is produced during the vaporization process, this has been tested. I don't know where the link is but it's been done and, so far, there's been no reports of anything known to be harmful.

[Sun Vaporer]

uuhm.

Well.

We have had great success removing it from atomizers with cola soaks...Many posters have reported that atomizers which were useless are restored to 100% after a good RC bath.

The phosphoric acid / carbonic acid combination makes one hell of a carbon remover.

We also know that isopropanol is solvent to carbon as a nonpolar.

We KNOW where it comes from, in my opinion. I think I've demonstrated that e-liquids form carbon deposits when they are vaporized. Those deposits seem to be worsened by VG.

So...I don't think the issue, anymore, is why. I think the issue is how to control the issue.

Also, as far as what is produced during the vaporization process, this has been tested. I don't know where the link is but it's been done and, so far, there's been no reports of anything known to be harmful.

Terropon--the issue is narrowed down now to one of control--here are the latest results again from Ruyan (double click on image to enlarge)--Sun


Results For Propylene Glycol
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052241578.jpg
Results For Chemical Reaction When Cartridge is Atomized
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052835906.jpg
Results For Zero Nicotine Cartridge and Temperature
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120051915593.jpg
Results For Nicotine in Cartridges
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052713875.jpg

[kinabaloo]

Terraphon - I agree it is from the liquid; i mean what part of it, what might we be able to change.

Re possible harm - i agree that under normal circumstances vaping produces no toxins. I mean when the fluid begins to run dry and we get that bad smell. I think that is the time the deposits are created, and that time might also be creating some toxins.

[Sun Vaporer]

Terraphon - I agree it is from the liquid; i mean what part of it, what might we be able to change.

Re possible harm - i agree that under normal circumstances vaping produces no toxins. I mean when the fluid begins to run dry and we get that bad smell. I think that is the time the deposits are created, and that time might also be creating some toxins.

Kin--if we can find away to clear the residue--any issue of toxins becomes mute--stick with trying to get rid of it---only makes sense?-Sun

[kinabaloo]

SunVaporer - No i dont agree it is just a matter of control. To get carbon there must be other products. We need to know what, from where, when and why. This is not just about atomiser life, it is about our lives too. We all know that acrid smell. We know now pretty much that this is not from the plastics in the atomiser but from the liquid. This doesn't mean it is no longer a concern. Glycerine when burned can produce toxins as bad as plastics. If this is the case we must address it. At least we need to ascertain if this is the case.

ps : sunvaporer - the deposits are not toxic, but there might be toxic gasses produced at the same time as the carbon is produced - the rest of the molecules, after losing some carbon atoms, are going somewhere ...

[Sun Vaporer]

SunVaporer - No i dont agree it is just a matter of control. To get carbon there must be other products. We need to know what, from where, when and why. This is not just about atomiser life, it is about our lives too. We all know that acrid smell. We know now pretty much that this is not from the plastics in the atomiser but from the liquid. This doesn't mean it is no longer a concern. Glycerine when burned can produce toxins as bad as plastics. If this is the case we must address it. At least we need to ascertain if this is the case.

We where only headed down the save all for the atomizers--take a look at the atomizer combustion analysis done by Ruyan--I do not think there is an issue there--the bad taste we get is rectified if we can control the residual build up--heavy duty studies like this one need to be done and that is out of our league. ---Sun

See--

Results For Chemical Reaction When Cartridge is Atomized
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052835906.jpg

[Terraphon]

We haven't yet ascertained the most likely source of the carbon?

I thought we had figured out that the rapid decomposition of the constituents found in the liquids creates carbon (the video I did) and that the process seems to be exacerbated by the addition of vegetable glycerin.

Also...after making a 1:1 mix of isopropanol and glycerin, when the glycerin finally decomposed it made the acrid smell I think you're talking about (I've never smelled it with my evo...probably because of the difference in atomizers but there was an easily discernible smell (and taste) when I fired up the atomizer sent to me by Sun, after re-vamping it.).

I have used that pen style atomizer several time but have never let it get close to running dry so that smell / taste hasn't returned. I'm fairly convinced that this smell / taste you're talking about IS due to the rapid decomposition of VG under [nearly] dry atomizer conditions and the accompanying chemical reactions (creation of carbon monoxide / carbon dioxide / propylene carbonate / etc...)

I think the best course to take is to back off the amounts of VG and see if the problems persist...as I said, I haven't experienced them but I haven't hit the thing that hard.

[kinabaloo]

Just to be clear, I am not myself worried about a bit of toxin. We live in a soup of toxins. Perhaps a few drags of bad smell is no worse than 1/2 an analog. But what if the regulators find this before we do something about it.

The deposits do not come from VG itself. So are you not interested in what part of nicotine juice it is coming from? Maybe something unnecessary, or maybe nicotine ! Something whose decomposition temperature is not far above its boiling point. We should try to pinpoint what that is.

This is all good cut and thrust; i appreciate you guys