How Confident Are We That These Are Actually Safe?

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

I was reading through a lot of old posts and it just doesn't seem that anyone ever found solid proof that what we are doing is actually a good idea. It seems like for the most part we are just assuming that vaping is better than smoking because smoking is just so bad.

There are posts about pg and vg and its relative safety but one can't be completely sure what years and years of inhaling either one directly into the lungs will actually do. Then there's the whole juice issue. We are getting juice made in unknown Chinese factories shipped over in boxes and mixed in other random places before it is sent to our door. I read posts about people having bad reactions to one juice and not to another. In reality, we really have no idea what we are inhaling into our bodies. We wouldn't know if the product was contaminated or if it was created in a sterile environment. We can't possibly know whether or not the entire activity has any unknown long term effects. We don't know what all the "good flavorings" could be doing to us either.

At the end of the day it just sucks to be so addicted to something that I have to "choose my poison" --On one hand I have something I know will kill me eventually...and on the other I have some Chinese **** with no quality research done on it that could be damaging me just the same. All there seems to be right now is "what ifs" "probablys" and a slew of other assumptions. ...I wish I never picked up a cigarette in my life.

[JohnnyNobs]

I couln't agree more with this post. While I have not had a real cig on over 9 days, which is an unbelievable miracle, I am now starting to worry about these things. Been reading about the fog machine issues, and possible nerve damage, kidney and liver problems, UGH !!!

The juice scares the heck out of me. I have ordered from Johnson Creek because the 'say' they make in the US. Ordering juice from China is a total gamble as far as I'm concerned, one plant may be using crushed up baby fetus' as a filler for all we know.

Its the PG thats the issue. I wish they could just develop a water based juice and a vaporizer that had a reservior that dripped a drop on the heating element with every drag. I don't care if it looks like a smoke, or has a light or any of that. Just give me my direct nic hit in my lungs safely.

[frogbmth]

If you just want a nic hit, the nicotrol inhaler would be a far better option for you. Most of us want a more satisfying experience though and e-cigs certainly are. But I agree with these points.

We have no clue how the nicotine is extracted from tobacco to spike the e-liquid, or what other chemicals may be extracted as a by product. We have no clue what the flavourings have in them, or whether the juice is prepared in a sterile environment.

Luckily PG is antibacterial, but VG is not. There have been scientific studies covering the effects of inhaling PG and they found that there are probably no long term effects. It can make your respitory system sore and dry but thats short term. Its the other contents of e-liquid that are more questionable.

This is exactly why the FDA want the juice tested and approved. Pure PG with pharm grade nicotine and flavours known to be safe would be awesome. We are not there yet.

I am not sure TBH that we will be any time soon. Shisha has been smoked for centuries and there is almost no data about its effects. Users say it is safer than smoking but some suspect otherwise.

There are other alternatives to smoking if you are that concerned. You can buy organic tobacco with no added chemicals and vaporize it, making it 98% safer than analogs. I doubt returning to the cancer sticks is a wise move for anybody.

Andy

[TropicalBob]

While I agree that e-smoking is done on faith and hope mostly, all signs so far are that it is not only safer than cigarette smoking, but perhaps safe, period. PG is not an issue. In fact, inhaling vaporized PG appears to be good for you (see 'germ-killing vapor thread). I e-smoke partly for the PG. If liquid is banned, I will make my own using PG, so that I can continue the protective effects of inhaling PG.

But all your concerns are valid and we must step back and ask exactly what we want the FDA, or Congress, or the health agencies, to approve. We are petitioning for what? Aside from the unfinished Ruyan study being done in New Zealand, we have little evidence to support our practice.

And liquids are a disaster in the making. Made at unknown places in China, not inspected, not regulated for content, not overseen for quality control, with improper labeling of a poison, without an ingredient list, without a manufacturing number for track back, without childproof vials for the most part, without tamperproof sealing .. just as bad as it could possibly get for an addictive and poisonous substance. And we want approval of that?

Not gonna happen. Not in this administration or any other. It's not prudent. It doesn't make sense. It's a "clear and present danger."

We need to settle on compromises that fulfill the promise of this alternative nicotine delivery system, while protecting consumers from health risks. The present situation is untenable, and a few thousand petitioners can't make it so. We need to fix it, not support it, regulate our practice, not ban it.

[JohnnyNobs]

I read that 'germ killing' article, was I drunk, or was that written in 1942 ? Didn't they think a stomach ache was cause by a little demon in your stomach in 1942 ? The cure was a good bleeding ! LOL

Anyhow, I am a total noob, but I do have a serious question to anyone reading this thread ... What is the longest any of you have been vaping ? I look at videos of the experts on here and hear them state 'I've been vaping for 4 months' .. holy crap ! Is this that much in its infancy ?

If anybody on here has been vaping for over a year or more, I would love to hear about how they feel, any side effects, etc.

Like you all say, I KNOW cigs are gonna kill me, but these babies may offer some hope, so vape on !

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

I read that 'germ killing' article, was I drunk, or was that written in 1942 ? Didn't they think a stomach ache was cause by a little demon in your stomach in 1942 ? The cure was a good bleeding ! LOL

Anyhow, I am a total noob, but I do have a serious question to anyone reading this thread ... What is the longest any of you have been vaping ? I look at videos of the experts on here and hear them state 'I've been vaping for 4 months' .. holy crap ! Is this that much in its infancy ?

If anybody on here has been vaping for over a year or more, I would love to hear about how they feel, any side effects, etc.

Like you all say, I KNOW cigs are gonna kill me, but these babies may offer some hope, so vape on !

I hear you. I've seen that study posted many, many times before as well. I am also quite skeptical of it because, let's face it, that was a long time ago. A lot of things have changed in the way testing is done and I would only feel fully confident about pg with some more modern testing and research. I mean, they didn't even know cigarettes were bad for you back in those days. How can I really trust that research.

I just found this posted in another thread about propylene glycol:

"Chronic exposure: Lactic acidosis, stupor, and seizures have been reported following chronic ingestion.
Aggravation of Pre-existing conditions: Kidney disorders "

This seems to be getting overlooked even though this is probably some of the more current information around on pg. As vapers we are chronic users so I am extremely leery about how safe pg actually is.

[TropicalBob]

Time changes nothing for proper scientific studies. And that one was properly conducted. Go to the source. Look at the photos. Read the entire report. And know that subsequent studies, as pointed out by Dr. Murray Laugesen in New Zealand, have supported those 1940s' findings and elaborated that tests of inhaled PG vapor have been done on children and adults -- without a single negative consequence. Read his latest e-smoking study report.

If you want a topic I'll never shut up about, it's PG testing. Been done. Determined safe. No need to freak out newbies who think Wikipedia is the end-all of information. I am totally satisfied with that aspect of our practice. The rest of what we inhale? Unknown.

[JohnnyNobs]

I'm not trying to offend anybody, I just want a guilt free smoke ! I'm catholic, so that may not be even possible.

So Bob, how long have you been vaping ? Do you know anybody who has been doing it for over a year or more ? Has their anus fallen off or anything 'odd' like that ? Personally, I'd sacrifice my anus if it meant I'd could vape long term.

[dEFinitionofEPIC]

Time changes nothing for proper scientific studies. And that one was properly conducted. Go to the source. Look at the photos. Read the entire report. And know that subsequent studies, as pointed out by Dr. Murray Laugesen in New Zealand, have supported those 1940s' findings and elaborated that tests of inhaled PG vapor have been done on children and adults -- without a single negative consequence. Read his latest e-smoking study report.

If you want a topic I'll never shut up about, it's PG testing. Been done. Determined safe. No need to freak out newbies who think Wikipedia is the end-all of information. I am totally satisfied with that aspect of our practice. The rest of what we inhale? Unknown.

Well you've done more than your share of homework.... If you feel that confident about it then I feel a lot better about it.... Now I only have the unknowns to worry about ....think I might follow your advice in the other post - if the anxiety is getting to me too much I'm just going to be a full time snuser until (hopefully until) they get some safety standards on this stuff.

[mealso]

Health Information

The toxicology database for PG has been reviewed and agreed upon by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) SIAM15 process. The oral toxicity of PG is low. In one study, rats were provided with feed containing as much as 5% PG over a period of 104 weeks and they showed no apparent ill effects.16 Because of its low chronic oral toxicity, PG is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) for use as a direct food additive. Since 1942, it has been included in New and Non-Official Remedies as a proper ingredient for pharmaceutical products and it is listed in the United States Pharmacopoeia. It is also widely used and accepted as an ingredient in dental preparations.17 PG is not approved for use in cat food.
Prolonged PG contact is essentially non-irritating to the skin. Undiluted PG is minimally irritating to the eye, and can produce slight transient conjunctivitis (the eye recovers after the exposure is removed). Exposure to mists may cause eye irritation, as well as upper respiratory tract irritation.18 Inhalation of the PG vapors appears to present no significant hazard in ordinary applications. However, limited human experience indicates that inhalation of PG mists may be irritating to some individuals. Therefore inhalation exposure to mists of these materials should be avoided. In general, Dow does not support or recommend the use of PG in applications where inhalation exposure or human eye contact with the spray mists of these materials is likely, such as fogs for theatrical productions or antifreeze solutions for emergency eye wash stations.19
PG does not cause sensitization and shows no evidence of being a carcinigen or of being genotoxic.20
For more information on the health hazards of PG and recommended protective equipment, view the safety data sheet