How valid are vaping health claims? - Page 10 - E-Cigarette Forum

jennydotz · 05-03-2009, 01:08 AM

I was very concerned also about that thread. I posted this over there, but no responses. Anyone else ever notice their batteries leaking, or have an experience similar to the other guy with lithium? Would it be useful to examine our batteries regularly? Is there a smell or other indication that something is wrong?

Doc · 05-03-2009, 01:39 AM

It would be helpful to know if there was a visible crack in the battery in question. How did the physician diagnose lithium ion inhalation? The symptoms should have at least included moderate to severe respiratory irritation.

jennydotz · 05-03-2009, 01:46 AM

Hey check it out I did get a reply on the other thread (Pilot bateries dead after 2 weeks) Here is the post from the OP AzVampyre (sp?):

"Was in the hospital for two days with what I thought was nicotine poisoning. Ive only been vaping the 6mg or 12mg juice but started to get extremely dizzy and sick.
The doctor told me it was not nicotine poisoning but sysemic absorbtion from lithium batteries.
The battery was cracked on the inside and allowed the lithium from the battery to vape with the e-liquid."

Later Post:

"The only particular things I noticed was liquid getting on my tongue alot and burned so bad that pepsi made it worse, but that may have been the eliquid which I bought somewhere else.

A day before I got ill there was no vapor but huge throat hit, and Id get dizzy and everything went dark for a few seconds. Id hear the atomizer gurgling even when the cart was dry, and that battery would only hold a charge for 20-30 min or less sometimes, but it also charged in less than an hour.

The last time I used it, the battery and atomizer got hotter than it should have, enough to make it uncomfortable to hold. The taste of the eliquid changed too, marlboro would taste like buttery burnt toast or buttery burnt popcorn.

But worst of all, it made me very angry and mean, like I was taking steroids. But I never have. That went away when I woke up this morning.

Im not trying to put the blame on PS, I was just angry that I was almost murdered by an inanimate object from China that I couldnt fight back, it's a horrible feeling.

I forgot to mention hot flashes, lots of them..and Im a male."

TropicalBob · 05-03-2009, 02:40 PM

Disturbing information, to be sure, and yet another reason that I think any "approved" e-cig will be a single-unit, use-it-and-toss it product. No dripping. No recharging. Known nicotine content. Tamperproof.

paladinx · 05-03-2009, 07:57 PM

I think everyone should take into consideration Kates position here. I am assuming that Kate is the owner, or co-owner of this forum?

This forum is pretty huge, there are many people reading and posting here. I guess the potential for business in the E-cigarette market is high.

There are two ways manufacturers, forum owners and those with a vested interest can go about e-smoking. They can make very general claims such as " this product is for smokers willing to try something new at their own risk" Or they can try and really market these products as a safe alternative to catch attention. Afterall, that is probably why most people start E-smoking to begin with, and a lot would love a very trustworthy, comprehensive stamp of health approval. But in order to do this, I guess kate is really wondering about the legalities involved and how one can even make such claims legally.

Most of this discussion is about the health aspects. Comparing them to cigarettes. Well like I have posted previously, If you compare these new gizmos to cigarette smoking, one thing everyone is not taking into consideration. Time of injury. How long, and how much of something do you need to consume on average to cause injury? I would say with some certainty, even with all the bad things in cigarettes such as the tar, carbonminoxide, nicotine etc, the amount of consumption on average to cause significant injury is significantly high.

Look at the thread "quit smoking success". There are many people there smoking cigarettes, 1 to even 4 packs a day for 10, 20, 40 Plus years! Why not compare that to e-smoking?

Kate brings up a good point in that, no one here really knows anything for sure, so how can you make a reasonable or legal claim?

well the only way really is to have some kind of clinical trial. Not just testing the liquids etc. You need to know how these chemicals react with the human body over time. For example. You can have a report that X liquid contains X mg's of PG. And PG is considered safe according to standards not related to constant inhalation. So what good does that really do?

The only way is to track and follow 100's if not thousands of E-smokers over a course of time, in phases. Then out of those people you have to take into consideration all other risks factors for disase, race, age gender, health state, medical problems, family history, allergies. etc. Then you would have to trace any ill effects that are directly related to E-smoking to this group and control group. And this has to be done over time. And even then there will be unknowns. What about 10 plus years, 20 plus years?

Just recently it has been determined that a chemical used in colonoscopies for YEARS now is known to cause kidney disease and failure. I know this because my mother has kidney failure because of this test. How long did it take to find this out?

So again, we do not know. cigarettes have been around A LONG TIME, and we know the risks and dangers and we know the relative consumption it takes to cause disease. and that is on average very heavy consumption over a very long period of time. Now is this the same with E-smoking? If i vape heavy for 10 years, will my risks be greater then a smoker relatively or less? can PG cause fatal kidney disease in 10 years, where as most 10 year smokers would be in decent health?? Food for thought.

Kate · 05-03-2009, 08:10 PM

That certainly is food for thought Paladin. I suspect that we won't have any solid idea about vaping and long term health impact for a generation or two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paladinx

I think everyone should take into consideration Kates position here. I am assuming that Kate is the owner, or co-owner of this forum? ...

No, I'm not the forum owner, co-owner or anything else, nor do I have any vested interests or affiliations. I'm just a nobody with a lot to say

paladinx · 05-03-2009, 09:22 PM

Well one solution I can think of is not having to need long term results for long-term claims. In other words, if there was a study or trial that assessed the health benefits and pitfalls of e-smoking for lets say a year or two years as part of a quit smoking program, Then you can make a claim to smokers that they can use E-smoking as part of a six month or 1, 2 etc. year program designed for quitting smoking, With a definite ending date of the program. And in this time you can state all the positive health benefits in this time interval. Instead of saying E-cigs are healthy indefinitely no matter how long you smoke. Lets face it and use some common sense here. ANYTHING to an extreme is not healthy. That includes over eating foods, taking too many vitamins etc. If you think you can smoke tons of vapor for 30 years and be perfectly healthy, I think that is an unrealistic assumption.

But if we change our thought process as a quit smoking PROGRAM, with an ending date where we quit smoking completely, I think more reasonable claims can be made right away. But I do not think most people would like this idea, because their real intention is not to quit anything, but to switch addictions or habits.

regards

Doc · 05-04-2009, 01:49 AM

No study will ever be adequate if e cigs are not available to the free market. Clinical tobacco studies were not done in a lab, clinical or otherwise. They were done on large populations. Consider yourselves pioneers taking a calculated risk. I'll put my money on the e cig vs. analogs any day.

Stephaniems · 05-04-2009, 12:54 PM

I've been using a dse 901 for about a month and 2 wks or so. The first thing I noticed is that I'm not congested anymore, the second thing was that I can smell stuff really well now (sometimes not so great a thing with 3 kids).

skin on my face is no longer dull looking
i've lost 10lbs (was so worried that I would gain)
i have tons more energy prob from being able to breathe better.
I don't smell of smoke and my house doesnt either.

and one of the best parts about the whole deal is that I don't feel guilty for "smoking" anymore. I like to smoke and I am addicted and that is the reason its so hard to put them down, would never have quit but I can take a pretty simple change and never smoke a regular one again.

I'm really trying to think of a negative, hmmm well guess I'm now worried about being poisoned by the batteries after reading this thread.

Oh btw I smoked my first regular cig at the age of 7 (31 now), and been doing it every since any chance I could get. So after smoking for that long i was suprised at how fast and easy the congestion in my lungs went away.

Happy vaping and wow now im seriously scared of my batteries!!!

paladinx · 05-04-2009, 05:34 PM

Steph, you are a great example of my point. You started smoking from a REAL tender age and have smoked since the age of 7!

Now think about it, If cigarettes were as bad or as risky as the current anti-tobacco advocates claim, Do you think you would still be alive right now?

The point of my entire post really is to take a different perspective. You are not comparing the dangers of E-smoking to cigarettes. You are comparing the dangers of E-smoking to overly exaggerated claims of how bad cigarettes are. And that is where all of you are falling into trouble.

Many people die from cigarettes each year, but the 400,000 claim a year is bogus. If a guy has a heart attack at the age of 85 and dies, if he had any cigarettes in his life, he is included in the tobacco death statistic. Same can be said for someone morbidly obese who dies with high blood pressure and high cholesterol. If they smoked, the anti tobacco groups are putting full blame on just tobacco to enhance their scare tactic statistics and not taking into account other factors.

Ill shut up now. Sorry for the long posts. But if you really want to compare e-cigs to regular cigarettes. Compare someone e smoking at the age of 7 to the age of 31, and look at what kind of health problems they might get from e-smoking.

05-03-2009, 01:08 AM	#91
jennydotz Senior Member Supporting Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: West Virginia, USA Posts: 197	I was very concerned also about that thread. I posted this over there, but no responses. Anyone else ever notice their batteries leaking, or have an experience similar to the other guy with lithium? Would it be useful to examine our batteries regularly? Is there a smell or other indication that something is wrong? __________________

05-03-2009, 01:46 AM	#93
jennydotz Senior Member Supporting Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: West Virginia, USA Posts: 197	Hey check it out I did get a reply on the other thread (Pilot bateries dead after 2 weeks) Here is the post from the OP AzVampyre (sp?): "Was in the hospital for two days with what I thought was nicotine poisoning. Ive only been vaping the 6mg or 12mg juice but started to get extremely dizzy and sick. The doctor told me it was not nicotine poisoning but sysemic absorbtion from lithium batteries. The battery was cracked on the inside and allowed the lithium from the battery to vape with the e-liquid." Later Post: "The only particular things I noticed was liquid getting on my tongue alot and burned so bad that pepsi made it worse, but that may have been the eliquid which I bought somewhere else. A day before I got ill there was no vapor but huge throat hit, and Id get dizzy and everything went dark for a few seconds. Id hear the atomizer gurgling even when the cart was dry, and that battery would only hold a charge for 20-30 min or less sometimes, but it also charged in less than an hour. The last time I used it, the battery and atomizer got hotter than it should have, enough to make it uncomfortable to hold. The taste of the eliquid changed too, marlboro would taste like buttery burnt toast or buttery burnt popcorn. But worst of all, it made me very angry and mean, like I was taking steroids. But I never have. That went away when I woke up this morning. Im not trying to put the blame on PS, I was just angry that I was almost murdered by an inanimate object from China that I couldnt fight back, it's a horrible feeling. I forgot to mention hot flashes, lots of them..and Im a male." __________________

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05-03-2009, 01:39 AM	#92
Doc Full Member Supporting Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 56	It would be helpful to know if there was a visible crack in the battery in question. How did the physician diagnose lithium ion inhalation? The symptoms should have at least included moderate to severe respiratory irritation.

05-03-2009, 02:40 PM	#94
TropicalBob PV Master ECF Veteran Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Port Charlotte, FL USA Posts: 5,614	Disturbing information, to be sure, and yet another reason that I think any "approved" e-cig will be a single-unit, use-it-and-toss it product. No dripping. No recharging. Known nicotine content. Tamperproof.

05-03-2009, 07:57 PM	#95
paladinx Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 479	I think everyone should take into consideration Kates position here. I am assuming that Kate is the owner, or co-owner of this forum? This forum is pretty huge, there are many people reading and posting here. I guess the potential for business in the E-cigarette market is high. There are two ways manufacturers, forum owners and those with a vested interest can go about e-smoking. They can make very general claims such as " this product is for smokers willing to try something new at their own risk" Or they can try and really market these products as a safe alternative to catch attention. Afterall, that is probably why most people start E-smoking to begin with, and a lot would love a very trustworthy, comprehensive stamp of health approval. But in order to do this, I guess kate is really wondering about the legalities involved and how one can even make such claims legally. Most of this discussion is about the health aspects. Comparing them to cigarettes. Well like I have posted previously, If you compare these new gizmos to cigarette smoking, one thing everyone is not taking into consideration. Time of injury. How long, and how much of something do you need to consume on average to cause injury? I would say with some certainty, even with all the bad things in cigarettes such as the tar, carbonminoxide, nicotine etc, the amount of consumption on average to cause significant injury is significantly high. Look at the thread "quit smoking success". There are many people there smoking cigarettes, 1 to even 4 packs a day for 10, 20, 40 Plus years! Why not compare that to e-smoking? Kate brings up a good point in that, no one here really knows anything for sure, so how can you make a reasonable or legal claim? well the only way really is to have some kind of clinical trial. Not just testing the liquids etc. You need to know how these chemicals react with the human body over time. For example. You can have a report that X liquid contains X mg's of PG. And PG is considered safe according to standards not related to constant inhalation. So what good does that really do? The only way is to track and follow 100's if not thousands of E-smokers over a course of time, in phases. Then out of those people you have to take into consideration all other risks factors for disase, race, age gender, health state, medical problems, family history, allergies. etc. Then you would have to trace any ill effects that are directly related to E-smoking to this group and control group. And this has to be done over time. And even then there will be unknowns. What about 10 plus years, 20 plus years? Just recently it has been determined that a chemical used in colonoscopies for YEARS now is known to cause kidney disease and failure. I know this because my mother has kidney failure because of this test. How long did it take to find this out? So again, we do not know. cigarettes have been around A LONG TIME, and we know the risks and dangers and we know the relative consumption it takes to cause disease. and that is on average very heavy consumption over a very long period of time. Now is this the same with E-smoking? If i vape heavy for 10 years, will my risks be greater then a smoker relatively or less? can PG cause fatal kidney disease in 10 years, where as most 10 year smokers would be in decent health?? Food for thought.

05-03-2009, 09:22 PM	#97
paladinx Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 479	Well one solution I can think of is not having to need long term results for long-term claims. In other words, if there was a study or trial that assessed the health benefits and pitfalls of e-smoking for lets say a year or two years as part of a quit smoking program, Then you can make a claim to smokers that they can use E-smoking as part of a six month or 1, 2 etc. year program designed for quitting smoking, With a definite ending date of the program. And in this time you can state all the positive health benefits in this time interval. Instead of saying E-cigs are healthy indefinitely no matter how long you smoke. Lets face it and use some common sense here. ANYTHING to an extreme is not healthy. That includes over eating foods, taking too many vitamins etc. If you think you can smoke tons of vapor for 30 years and be perfectly healthy, I think that is an unrealistic assumption. But if we change our thought process as a quit smoking PROGRAM, with an ending date where we quit smoking completely, I think more reasonable claims can be made right away. But I do not think most people would like this idea, because their real intention is not to quit anything, but to switch addictions or habits. regards

05-04-2009, 01:49 AM	#98
Doc Full Member Supporting Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 56	No study will ever be adequate if e cigs are not available to the free market. Clinical tobacco studies were not done in a lab, clinical or otherwise. They were done on large populations. Consider yourselves pioneers taking a calculated risk. I'll put my money on the e cig vs. analogs any day.

05-04-2009, 12:54 PM	#99
Stephaniems Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 477	I've been using a dse 901 for about a month and 2 wks or so. The first thing I noticed is that I'm not congested anymore, the second thing was that I can smell stuff really well now (sometimes not so great a thing with 3 kids). skin on my face is no longer dull looking i've lost 10lbs (was so worried that I would gain) i have tons more energy prob from being able to breathe better. I don't smell of smoke and my house doesnt either. and one of the best parts about the whole deal is that I don't feel guilty for "smoking" anymore. I like to smoke and I am addicted and that is the reason its so hard to put them down, would never have quit but I can take a pretty simple change and never smoke a regular one again. I'm really trying to think of a negative, hmmm well guess I'm now worried about being poisoned by the batteries after reading this thread. Oh btw I smoked my first regular cig at the age of 7 (31 now), and been doing it every since any chance I could get. So after smoking for that long i was suprised at how fast and easy the congestion in my lungs went away. Happy vaping and wow now im seriously scared of my batteries!!!

05-04-2009, 05:34 PM	#100
paladinx Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: NYC Posts: 479	Steph, you are a great example of my point. You started smoking from a REAL tender age and have smoked since the age of 7! Now think about it, If cigarettes were as bad or as risky as the current anti-tobacco advocates claim, Do you think you would still be alive right now? The point of my entire post really is to take a different perspective. You are not comparing the dangers of E-smoking to cigarettes. You are comparing the dangers of E-smoking to overly exaggerated claims of how bad cigarettes are. And that is where all of you are falling into trouble. Many people die from cigarettes each year, but the 400,000 claim a year is bogus. If a guy has a heart attack at the age of 85 and dies, if he had any cigarettes in his life, he is included in the tobacco death statistic. Same can be said for someone morbidly obese who dies with high blood pressure and high cholesterol. If they smoked, the anti tobacco groups are putting full blame on just tobacco to enhance their scare tactic statistics and not taking into account other factors. Ill shut up now. Sorry for the long posts. But if you really want to compare e-cigs to regular cigarettes. Compare someone e smoking at the age of 7 to the age of 31, and look at what kind of health problems they might get from e-smoking.