Vegetable glycerine (glycerol) - safety discussion

[Mihai]

Devilfish, glycerine is not toxic per se.
Glycerine is dangerous because @ 280 deg C it transforms in completely another chemical - acrolein - which is very toxic.

Our atomizers heat at about 200 deg, probably much more if you drag longer or if the filament has a bit lower resistance than the standard. This happens pretty often - that's why some atomizers die faster (lower resistance - higher temp) and others don't vape too well or they do it only if you keep dragging (higher resistance - lower temp). Also a proof for higher temperatures is that cotton burns at over 250 deg C, so if your cotton filament ever burned that's because it reached over that temp.

[icemanmaz]

There is a big differance in a cig and an e-cig then
We performed a series of experiments in order to determine the actual temperature of the lit cigarette. Here are the results for the temperature at different locations and under different conditions:

Temperature without drawing:
Side of the lit portion: 400 deg C (or 752 deg F)
Middle of the lit portion: 580 deg C (or 1112 deg F)

Temperature during drawing:
Middle of the lit portion: 700 deg C (or 1292 deg F)

The above numbers represent the average we obtained by performing several trials and can be considered accurate to within 50 deg C. A standard Fe-CuNi digital thermocouple thermometer was used in all trials.

[DeviLFisH]

Originally Posted by Mihai

Devilfish, glycerine is not toxic per se.
Glycerine is dangerous because @ 280 deg C it transforms in completely another chemical - acrolein - which is very toxic.

Our atomizers heat at about 200 deg, probably much more if you drag longer or if the filament has a bit lower resistance than the standard. This happens pretty often - that's why some atomizers die faster (lower resistance - higher temp) and others don't vape too well or they do it only if you keep dragging (higher resistance - lower temp). Also a proof for higher temperatures is that cotton burns at over 250 deg C, so if your cotton filament ever burned that's because it reached over that temp.

skip my glycerine already , because it stated Cannot be use orally , for external use.

maybe this glycerine cannot be use .


so now I plan to use baking flavour extract instead.

[margouillat]

It's very interesting information
And i read that : "When glycerine is heated above 150°C, it starts decomposition and produces toxic smoke called acrolein (acraldehyde, or prop-2-enal).

Acrolein is such a severe pulmonary irritant and lacrimating agent that it has been used as a chemical weapon during World War I."
ARROW MERCHANDISING

So 250°c or 150°c ?

[TheEmperorOfIceCream]

Hi Mihai, thanks for posting this, it certainly warrants discussion. VG vapers, any observations? If this is breaking down into acrolein (which I've never heard of until now, by the way), then I would expect to hear reports of respiratory difficulties, given it's cited as a severe pulmonary irritant.

I haven't yet tried VG formulations, but this is very concerning for the pursuit as a whole. Most of us are banking on this being proven safer than hot smoking.

I don't want to overreact here, though. Glycerin is used in theatrical smoke machines as well as propylene glycol, so perhaps it does not heat to the decomposition point. There must be tech specs available for fog machines. What's the temperature of the heating block, what's the parts-per-million output of a fog machine?

Mac, if you catch this, did anything come up in your lab reports about acrolein?

Dr Loi, if you read this, could you post your thoughts?

Thanks

Emp

[Mamba]

Originally Posted by Mihai

You should stop vaping VG now! It's not some theoretical hazard. The first chemist I asked about buying VG for smoking told me instantly I am crazy.

Heated at 280 deg C it decomposes to acrolein. This is not a partial decomposition. It also doesn't need any other chemical component or anything, just heat. This is actually one of the ways of obtaining acrolein.
280 deg C is pretty close of what the atomizer gives now.

If your numbers are correct it would mean the atomizer would have to consistently reach about 540 degrees Farenheit or above. Just from personal experience I doubt a properly working atomizer is getting this hot but I could be wrong. In my opinion it is fruitless to jump to conclusions based on guessing. We need actual tests of the vapor produced by different devices instead of researching the Internet or asking someone's opinion. We need the real specs. of these devices: how hot does the atomizer actually get?, what are the specific ingredients of the e-liquid and is it manufactured in sterile facilities and of pharmaceutical grade components?, what is the "floss" made of and can it off-gas to any appreciable degree?, if the atomizer malfunctions can it get significantly hotter and allow the device to emit dangerous vapor?, etc.

Until these questions are answered by the manufacturers of these products we are just hoping that they are actually safer than tobacco cigarettes. As for acrolein (or acrylamide), if it concerns you then you would have to stop breathing car exhaust and eating french fries. Some health zealots even compare each french fry as the equivalent of a cigarette. I still think banning smoking outside is ludicrous. But if there is anything (and I mean anything) closely resembling any component of cigarette smoke in e-cig vapor then you can forget about using it in public. Even if your acrolein ouput is miniscule compared to the Hummer passing you as you sit at the sidewalk cafe it will have to be banned. For the sake of everyone's health, blah, blah, blah.

ATSDR - ToxFAQs™: Acrolein

Acrylamide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[dc2k08]

250 c seems abit much for the atomizer. i doubt it can go that hot. isnt glycerin an ingredient in our reg e-liquid anyway?

[vafvaf]

Originally Posted by dc2k08

250 c seems abit much for the atomizer. i doubt it can go that hot. isnt glycerin an ingredient in our reg e-liquid anyway?

i remember that in the time of e'cig forum ecig answered several times about temperature inside atomizer, dont remember exactly, but sure it was higher than 250 c

[MagusSteele]

Hi people,
First VG is fine, but, there is more then one kind, and extraction method, and viscosity. There is several types of mixes, and synthetics even, not to mention the lower grade has more vegetable Matter mixed in (its more cloudy), even if it is microscopic pieces.
The low grade VG Tends to clog the vaporizers too .

In the club we run Straight triple distilled water through, untill the fog comes out clear to clean it.
I guess it could be possible to do that with an E-cig.
The mix is also very important.
Standard Fog juice, like used in a Night club or haunted house is
6oz(177.444ml) - 8oz (236.592ml) mixed into 1Gallon (3.785Liters)
of Triple Distilled Water,

Dont know why this went red,

The thicker the smoke, and the longer hang time the more VG or PG you mix in. VG is suggested, but PG is also approved to use. NOW "EG" is dangerous if burnt. I have in the past bought some fog juice from china that had that in it.

However your not Hoffing from smoke machines eather, hehe
As for the breakdown under heat, the burnt veg matter is worse for you.
If people were really worried about what they injest, they would stop drinking diet pop too, that breaks down to Embalming fluid at 90f (body temp)

Alcohol is not great as a suspension media, it has a lower flash point, and may over heat the elements, leading to shorter life spans for your atomizers. It burns cleaner, less residue, but because it burns better, it should have less Visible smoke.
You Can cut with it, but i wouldnt over do the amount, we are talking a drop per like, 10ml

I have been a DJ for over 20 years, and going to Clubs Longer. I was tought how to mix the fog juice from pros who do it for major bands, and i have made Gallons of it, believe me, it wont kill you, unless you already have a bad medical condition.
It does leave a slight oil resedue, but thats basicly vegetable oil.
I am no doctor, but that should be able to pass easily to expel it.

Steele

[Mihai]

sorry, I can't edit the original post. If one of the mods can, then please edit the stupid stuff from the original message, some people might not consider reading past the first posts and they will get the wrong ideas.