Vegetable glycerine (glycerol) - safety discussion

[Casey C]

If all or most of the Glycerine in VG eliquid(which can be up to 70% Glycerine) were converted to Acrolein in the atomizer, then my last point would occur(everyone would be dead)

and just to nip this response early:

heating glycerol is a very inefficient way of attaining acrolein, consider that cigarettes reach 700 degrees celsius and only 1% of the glycerol in the study was converted to acrolein so even if your liquid is 70% glycerol, you're not using much liquid in the first place, and the yield of acrolein is quite low

glycerol actually breaks down into acetaldehyde and propionaldehyde as well, while propylene glycol boils at a much lower point and doesn't release these chemicals - so from whats known, it is much safer

my original point still stands tho, if you're allergic to PG or prefer the more substantial smoke or sweeter taste created by glycerol, thats your call, just know its a skin and respiratory irritant, although they haven't proved its carcinogenic.. like the 40 chemicals in cigarette smoke

[markarich159]

Casey, I don't quite understand your argument. Your basically agreeing with me that there is no danger in vaping Glycerine(which has been discussed to death in other threads), but continuing to show studies on cigarette data. Can you please show a study on acrolein production in an e-cigarette, or a case history of a patient harmed by acrolein poisoning from vaping VG. None of us in this forum care about cigarette studies anymore(we know the dangers, that's why we're now vaping and in this forum). The point is e-cig atomizers do NOT reach anywhere near the temp required to produce acrolein from glycerol. The OP's initial post was a reaction to something that someone he knew(who knew nothing about e-cigs or the function of the atomizers) combined with a bit of data on acrolein that any can wiki. That is my final word on the issue. Continue to post as many unrelated cig studies, pulled out of context, as you wish. I have no more time to defend a position that has logically and practically been proven. Do you even know what the LD50 of Acrolein is? Do you know what an LD50 is without google or wiki?

Just sayin'(what are you 16)

[Casey C]

Casey, I don't quite understand your argument. Your basically agreeing with me that there is no danger in vaping Glycerine(which has been discussed to death in other threads), but continuing to show studies on cigarette data. Can you please show a study on acrolein production in an e-cigarette, or a case history of a patient harmed by acrolein poisoning from vaping VG. None of us in this forum care about cigarette studies anymore(we know the dangers, that's why we're now vaping and in this forum). The point is e-cig atomizers do NOT reach anywhere near the temp required to produce acrolein from glycerol. The OP's initial post was a reaction to something that someone he knew(who knew nothing about e-cigs or the function of the atomizers) combined with a bit of data on acrolein that any can wiki. That is my final word on the issue. Continue to post as many unrelated cig studies, pulled out of context, as you wish. I have no more time to defend a position that has logically and practically been proven. Do you even know what the LD50 of Acrolein is? Do you know what an LD50 is without google or wiki?

Just sayin'(what are you 16)

a heat based vaporizer works by boiling liquid into a vapor, I'm sensing you don't know this - now granted there is new technology that uses ultrasonic frequencies, but that's not what we're debating

liquid touches the hot coil, boils into a vapor, and fresh liquid hits the coil, rinse repeat

don't call me a child because you fail to grasp the basic concept

oh and the ruyan report does admit to having found trace levels of acrolein, again can't link

[Angela]

...and Ecopure (which is a VG-based liquid) was specifically tested for Acrolein because of people's concern over this and none was found in the vapour.

[Casey C]

Casey, I don't quite understand your argument. Your basically agreeing with me that there is no danger in vaping Glycerine(which has been discussed to death in other threads), but continuing to show studies on cigarette data. Can you please show a study on acrolein production in an e-cigarette, or a case history of a patient harmed by acrolein poisoning from vaping VG. None of us in this forum care about cigarette studies anymore(we know the dangers, that's why we're now vaping and in this forum). The point is e-cig atomizers do NOT reach anywhere near the temp required to produce acrolein from glycerol. The OP's initial post was a reaction to something that someone he knew(who knew nothing about e-cigs or the function of the atomizers) combined with a bit of data on acrolein that any can wiki. That is my final word on the issue. Continue to post as many unrelated cig studies, pulled out of context, as you wish. I have no more time to defend a position that has logically and practically been proven. Do you even know what the LD50 of Acrolein is? Do you know what an LD50 is without google or wiki?

Just sayin'(what are you 16)

since post count will allow me to eventually link things I'll keep going,

I'm not interested in the lethal dosage of acrolein, I pointed out that the amounts produced would be small, its long term exposure to a tissue irritant that produces effects at 2ppm that I'm worried about. Throat irritation, respiratory problems, secondary infections, although cancer is ruled out by it not being a carcinogen, it is something you'll be sucking into your lungs repeatedly and regularly

I am quoting cigarette reports as they are quite relevant; they show the effects of heating glycerol and data on "e-juice" is quite limited. There is also the point to be made that as this is a 'healthier' alternative to smoking that this would be the light to show it in, as opposed to having no risks at all, which would be disengenuous as nicotine itself is not 'healthy'

[markarich159]

a heat based vaporizer works by boiling liquid into a vapor, I'm sensing you don't know this - now granted there is new technology that uses ultrasonic frequencies, but that's not what we're debating

liquid touches the hot coil, boils into a vapor, and fresh liquid hits the coil, rinse repeat

don't call me a child because you fail to grasp the basic concept

oh and the ruyan report does admit to having found trace levels of acrolein, again can't link

These are different physical processes at work. Vaporization is different from Boiling(evaporation). One is a physical phase change(requiring a specific enthalpy). The other is a radical change in particle size. In an atomizer (as well as a fog machine) the glycerin or PG assists the water present to vaporize(this is not steam(gas), rather a mixture of PG/VG/water that has been tranformed from a liquid to a very small particulate vapor- particle size of about 0.04micron). The nicotine(and any other flavors/excipients present in the initial liquid) are taken "along for the ride", so to speak, dissolved within the microparticles. This is why it takes less energy to create vapor then it does steam , and also why the atomizer can function at lower temperatures. This property of glycerine/PG/water solutions has been known for some time. It is a similar principle used in a nebulizer machine(that delivers albuterol/cromolyn/ipratropium solutions to asthmatics). I went to Pharmacy School for 6 years to learn about things such as this. I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend you. I just don't want information that is patently false distributed on these forums to cause hysteria among us fellow vapers. We already have enough to worry about with the FDA, PayPal etc... Ok that's my final word.

[Casey C]

...and Ecopure (which is a VG-based liquid) was specifically tested for Acrolein because of people's concern over this and none was found in the vapour.

can't speak to their results, but the test itself states the injection temp on the chromatography was 300 degrees celcius, above the boiling point of glycerol

These are different physical processes at work. Vaporization is different from Boiling(evaporation). One is a physical phase change(requiring a specific enthalpy). The other is a radical change in particle size. In an atomizer (as well as a fog machine) the glycerin or PG assists the water present to vaporize(this is not steam(gas), rather a mixture of PG/VG/water that has been tranformed from a liquid to a very small particulate vapor- particle size of about 0.04micron). The nicotine(and any other flavors/excipients present in the initial liquid) are taken "along for the ride", so to speak, dissolved within the microparticles. This is why it takes less energy to create vapor then it does steam , and also why the atomizer can function at lower temperatures. This property of glycerine/PG/water solutions has been known for some time. It is a similar principle used in a nebulizer machine(that delivers albuterol/cromolyn/ipratropium solutions to asthmatics). I went to Pharmacy School for 6 years to learn about things such as this. I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend you. I just don't want information that is patently false distributed on these forums to cause hysteria among us fellow vapers. We already have enough to worry about with the FDA, PayPal etc... Ok that's my final word.

quite
except the glycerol or PG is added to create a heavy vapor, not merely facilitate the boiling of water

if the only point was to cut the nicotine for vaporization it could be done with alcohol or another fluid - the glycerol is added to create a heavy vapor that creates a 'throat hit' and a visible cloud upon exhale - much like it is used in fog machines to create the heavy visible fog

oh - and steam is vaporized water.

[RIMP]

Thank you. There is WAY too much hysteria. Until we get a thorough analysis of exactly what is produced when you vape vg or pg or peg we need to chill! Most of us feel it is still a safer alternative to smoking. My little soapbox.

[Casey C]

These are different physical processes at work. Vaporization is different from Boiling(evaporation).

oh - and evaporation is a type of vaporization

[Casey C]

oh and mark, since you obviously can't look things up on your own

Boiling, a type of phase transition, is the rapid vaporization of a liquid


A vapor is a substance in the gas phase at a temperature lower than its critical temperature. This means that the vapor can be condensed to a liquid or to a solid by increasing its pressure, without reducing the temperature.

Vaporization of an element or compound is a phase transition from the liquid phase to gas phase. There are two types of vaporization: evaporation and boiling.