Vegetable glycerine (glycerol) - safety discussion - Page 3 - E-Cigarette Forum

Nazareth · 08-27-2008, 07:35 PM

Hey no worries man- We're all just learnign about htis products- There is certainly reason to be cautious for folks that are concerned abotu health- you didn't overreact- I understand the alarm it raised. Thanks for the research- these are important issues that we need to keep on top of

Mihai · 08-27-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagusSteele

Hi people,
First VG is fine, but, there is more then one kind, and extraction method, and viscosity. There is several types of mixes, and synthetics even, not to mention the lower grade has more vegetable Matter mixed in (its more cloudy), even if it is microscopic pieces.

True, but the glycerol formula is the same no matter how is obtained and it breaks down to the same stuff. Even more, as you say, those impurities can do bad things to your health and to your atomizer.

The reason natural stuff is preferable is because the extraction process doesn't usually involve other chemicals which can leave hazardous traces in the final product.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagusSteele

It does leave a slight oil resedue, but thats basicly vegetable oil.
I am no doctor, but that should be able to pass easily to expel it.

That's not vegetable oil thats PG or VG from the vapors, both of them being oily.

CaSHMeRe · 08-27-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mihai

sorry, I can't edit the original post. If one of the mods can, then please edit the stupid stuff from the original message, some people might not consider reading past the first posts and they will get the wrong ideas.

Done. 2nd post added to the first

MagusSteele · 08-27-2008, 08:01 PM

The bottom line is, if you MUST have a Visible "smoke" you will need a solid. Somthing with a low flash point, or OIL of some kind, to actually Make the smoke. Thats where the health risks come into play.
IF these were used as Just a Nico delivery system, it would "Almost" be risk free.
If there was a way to just vaporize it with out heat, that would help too. (any electronic engineers out there? hehe, im more mechanical)

Also, if the e-cigs are acting like a fog machine, and if those are approved (at least here in the states) by the food and drug administration, wouldnt these be approved as well? By proxy, as long as the mixes were close to the same ratios?

katink · 08-27-2008, 08:04 PM

Wouldn't it be best, if a mod could port the post you just made into your first post? So readers see immediately that first alarm was followed by second thoughts and recalculation? (Edit: done while I was typing...)

Then another remark on the subject itself: it may be that the wire in the e-device gets to a certain temperature... but that doesn't mean the e-liquid gets to the same temperature! E-liquid seems to allready turn into vapour (then leaving the hot surroundings because going upward...) at as low as 60C. I think I read that in some Janty-text (not sure though where it was). Anyhow, 60C is a real far way off 280... and even if I can't retrace this text... the principle still counts: wire at certain temp does not mean liquid gets to that temp too... it's long gone away from the surroundings of the wire, as vapour, before that... and even the surroundings of the wire where evaporation takes place still aren't 'just as hot' as the wire itself...

CaSHMeRe · 08-27-2008, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katink

Wouldn't it be best, if a mod could port the post you just made into your first post? So readers see immediately that first alarm was followed by second thoughts and recalculation?

Already done ...

my fingers are slower than my eyes ... sorry bud ... lol

Kate · 08-27-2008, 08:07 PM

I've been vaping alcohol based flavouring neat for a few hours now. It does indeed produce vapour, the vapour is visible on exhaling too although a bit less than with propylene glycol or veg glycerine. One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it. I don't have any neat pg so can't test how well pg and alcohol do when mixed but I'd say that if you decide you can't use vg then alcohol would probably be a good replacement.

MagusSteele · 08-27-2008, 08:11 PM

We posted at the same time, you make a good point Katink.
If it was coming out that hot, wouldnt you burn the heck out of your mouth, lips, or what ever?
It is the temp of the smoke point, and not the element you need to figure out, to use all this information on the amount of transformation.

MagusSteele · 08-27-2008, 08:17 PM

Where is the Edit button?

Thats Good Kate.
I was going by what I was told, but you confirmed what i said about the temp going up.

Me - "it has a lower flash point, and may over heat the elements, leading to shorter life spans for your atomizers."

Kate - "One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it."

jigtg · 08-27-2008, 08:37 PM

Temperatures measured with type j 0.2mm twisted pair thermocouple:
146C(7.8mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 170C in core (less than 2mm to coil), no cartridge
103C(5.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 127C under steel wool
27C(1.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 53C in cartridge near steel wool

I added 26C ambient temperature compensation afterwards!
As the wire conducts heat, actual temperatures will be higher. How much, I don't
know. What I can say is that actual temperatures can't be less than those stated.

Atomizer coil resistance is 3.2 ohms. Li-ion cell is rated 3.7 volts(4.15v max.
measured). Cig itself is dx/sku.14562 .

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08-27-2008, 07:35 PM	#21
Nazareth Ultra Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 1,302	Hey no worries man- We're all just learnign about htis products- There is certainly reason to be cautious for folks that are concerned abotu health- you didn't overreact- I understand the alarm it raised. Thanks for the research- these are important issues that we need to keep on top of

08-27-2008, 08:01 PM	#24
MagusSteele Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NorthCoast, Cleveland, OH, USA, Terra, Sol System Posts: 536	The bottom line is, if you MUST have a Visible "smoke" you will need a solid. Somthing with a low flash point, or OIL of some kind, to actually Make the smoke. Thats where the health risks come into play. IF these were used as Just a Nico delivery system, it would "Almost" be risk free. If there was a way to just vaporize it with out heat, that would help too. (any electronic engineers out there? hehe, im more mechanical) Also, if the e-cigs are acting like a fog machine, and if those are approved (at least here in the states) by the food and drug administration, wouldnt these be approved as well? By proxy, as long as the mixes were close to the same ratios?

08-27-2008, 08:04 PM	#25
katink Ultra Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 1,228 Tweet this post!	Wouldn't it be best, if a mod could port the post you just made into your first post? So readers see immediately that first alarm was followed by second thoughts and recalculation? (Edit: done while I was typing...) Then another remark on the subject itself: it may be that the wire in the e-device gets to a certain temperature... but that doesn't mean the e-liquid gets to the same temperature! E-liquid seems to allready turn into vapour (then leaving the hot surroundings because going upward...) at as low as 60C. I think I read that in some Janty-text (not sure though where it was). Anyhow, 60C is a real far way off 280... and even if I can't retrace this text... the principle still counts: wire at certain temp does not mean liquid gets to that temp too... it's long gone away from the surroundings of the wire, as vapour, before that... and even the surroundings of the wire where evaporation takes place still aren't 'just as hot' as the wire itself...

08-27-2008, 08:07 PM	#27
Kate Moved On Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: UK Posts: 7,336	I've been vaping alcohol based flavouring neat for a few hours now. It does indeed produce vapour, the vapour is visible on exhaling too although a bit less than with propylene glycol or veg glycerine. One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it. I don't have any neat pg so can't test how well pg and alcohol do when mixed but I'd say that if you decide you can't use vg then alcohol would probably be a good replacement.

08-27-2008, 08:11 PM	#28
MagusSteele Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NorthCoast, Cleveland, OH, USA, Terra, Sol System Posts: 536	We posted at the same time, you make a good point Katink. If it was coming out that hot, wouldnt you burn the heck out of your mouth, lips, or what ever? It is the temp of the smoke point, and not the element you need to figure out, to use all this information on the amount of transformation.

08-27-2008, 08:17 PM	#29
MagusSteele Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: NorthCoast, Cleveland, OH, USA, Terra, Sol System Posts: 536	Where is the Edit button? Thats Good Kate. I was going by what I was told, but you confirmed what i said about the temp going up. Me - "it has a lower flash point, and may over heat the elements, leading to shorter life spans for your atomizers." Kate - "One thing I noticed was my atomiser burning hotter with the alcohol, this might not be good for it."

08-27-2008, 08:37 PM	#30
jigtg Super Member ECF Veteran Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Sparta, Greece Posts: 326	Temperatures measured with type j 0.2mm twisted pair thermocouple: 146C(7.8mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 170C in core (less than 2mm to coil), no cartridge 103C(5.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 127C under steel wool 27C(1.4mV) + 26C(1.329mV) = 53C in cartridge near steel wool I added 26C ambient temperature compensation afterwards! As the wire conducts heat, actual temperatures will be higher. How much, I don't know. What I can say is that actual temperatures can't be less than those stated. Atomizer coil resistance is 3.2 ohms. Li-ion cell is rated 3.7 volts(4.15v max. measured). Cig itself is dx/sku.14562 .