Plastic melting carts = poison

[Kate51]

Here's a good source to answer one question, anyway, about the findings of October 2008

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartr...t30-Oct-08.pdf

this is an exerpt of same regarding harmful components:

Three experiments were undertaken, as follows:

1. 38 millilitre puff. After correcting for dilution, the most common cigarette smoke
toxicants were found to be either completely absent, or present in amounts less than 1
part per million. The LED at the tip of the e-cigarette was activated, indicating air was
pulled through the e-cigarette. The mean results from analysis of duplicate samples were as
follows:

Table 3.1.2 Compounds measured in first 38 ml sample of e-cigarette mist.
Compound Mean Units

1,3-butadiene not detected Ppm
Acetaldehyde 0.34 Ppm
Acetone 0.16 Ppm
Acrolein not detected Ppm
Acrylonitrile not detected Ppm
Benzene not detected Ppm
Ethanol 100 Ppm
Ethylene glycol not detected Ppm
Ethylene oxide not detected Ppm
Formaldehyde 0.25 Ppm
Hydrogen cyanide not detected Ppm
Cresol 0.16 Ppm
Xylene 0.18 Ppm
Nicotine not detected Ppm
Propylene glycol 32 Ppm
Propylene oxide not detected Ppm
Styrene 0.29 Ppm
Note: The limit of detection was 0.01 ppm and the limit of quantification was 0.025 ppm
for this analysis.

2. 58 milliliter puff. Analysis revealed that the concentration of propylene glycol was too
high for the SIFT-MS instrument, so a subsequent dilution was made bringing the overall
dilution to 1 part puff in 1500 parts air. The results obtained revealed a concentration of
approximately 0.5% propylene glycol (5000 ppm) in the original puff, but did not allow theresearchers to gain any reliable quantitative data for the toxicants.

Hope this helped a bit.

[Scottbee]

Well.......I've seen to many sources like this one and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

So you're not going to vape anymore?

[Vaporer]

Kate,

I don't see glycerine in the list. That appears to be a PG formulation from the New Zealand Studies.

Scotty,

No, I didn't say that. I just don't see why people want to push it running higher temps when it appears to be safer running it the way it was designed. I've also seen testing results that contained VG and no acrolein was present and many will argue that its close to the temp to form it. So, I have to assume they are using the "standard" setup.

Another thing I've never been able to find is when the e cig was originally designed was VG a component of e liquid or did someone along the way just add it in for more vapor production and it "caught on"?

Vaping is still safer than analogs IMHO, but why risk acrolein for a little more fog? Many say a lot of flavor is lost at high volts and some now make juice for them with more flavor added. I add abt 30% VG to my liquids sometime. I'm just not a proponent of 5 & 6v. I do think people should be made aware that it can happen. They can do the research if they decide to and make thier choice.

Actually, I think this is the last time I'll mention it.

[Kurt]

Well.......I've seen to many sources like this one and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

"When Glycerol is heated to 280 °C, it decomposes into acrolein. Acrolein may also be produced on lab scale by the reaction of potassium bisulfate on glycerol (glycerine)."
Acrolein: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Attys at 3.7v are pulling approx 1A. So, you can use this CURRENT TEMPERATURE TABLE for the temp.
Nichrome Wire

We've all seen our atty coils glow red. Here's a color temp table.
Metal Temperature by Color

The amount of airflow will have effects on the temp, but as we all know many attys develop a hard draw with little air flow.
Running an atomizer designed for 3.7v at almost 2x the voltage is quite a bit hotter.

If you want to say its safe and not happening, that's your choice.

But according to wiki, VG boils at 290 deg C. The decomposition reaction to produce acrolein is an oxidation. This is why bisulfate is used, as this is a oxidating agent. It seems that there is some info not included with this decomposition statement. Implied is that VG does not boil, but only decomposes, and this is not true. Perhaps other conditions must be in place, like high pressure, or an active catalyst.

Have the chinese analyzed vapor from juices containing VG? They detected no acrolein, but was this a PG-only juice?

What is the water-glycerol eutectic? In other words, are the juices boiling at lower temps due to the presence of eutectic water?

My 510 attys will glow orange if I keep them fired long enough. I do not initent to mod to higher voltage, as I have no reason to. I get plenty of vapor now, and good flavor at 3.7 V.

Has TW looked into this? Their unflavored 36 mg is 65% pg 20 % VG. Maybe the mix boils at a lower temp, or PG vaporizing just carries out VG with it?

VG producing alpha,beta-unsaturated carbonyl compounds could be a real problem. They are toxic because they polymerize so easily, and are very reactive. ketones like this smell of paint, since this is what is used for the vehicle of paint to make it polymerize. I'm pretty good with being able to detect the smell of many organic compounds. Could this be the time-to-top-off taste that we all know??? Maybe acrolein is a combustion product, and not just a vaporization product.

Hopefully this is not a problem, but I think it is good to figure it out. Someone else said this has been discussed and was determined to not happen. Can you post links to those threads, please? I"m seeing a lot of statements about acrolein, but nothing that is telling me that it is being produced absolutely in normal 3.7 V vaping. I am not a big fan of PG at all, and I'm using almost exclusively VG these days, and liking it a lot. So some detailed info on this would be good. Not sure what I'll do if it turns out VG is bad...I have a lot of high-nic VG juice.

[Vex444]

I too hav noticed a bit of melting on edge of cart. Thanks to this thread I now will trim the carts thought it was me.

[Vaporer]

I apologize for jacking the thread on the other issue.
They seem to go so close together though. Manual switches and higher volts can easily cause your problem too.

It's for sure if you can smell or taste burnt plastic it isn't good for you and you should do what you need to prevent it from happening.

[Kate51]

I think it is appropriate Vaporer, it all ties together well. The testing was done with Propylene Glycol, temps of VG and PG would vary, however it was tested for acrolein in the mist, not in chamber with bisulfates. So one could assume this is an area that needs more clarification. Gotta do some more looking, the Ruyan testing did touch on the things tested for, but only under limited conditions as far as number of puffs, and the mist was also on a full cart. For example, running low on e-liquid, dry atty, high power, etc.
NOTE TO SELF: ask somebody!!

[Kurt]

I think it is appropriate Vaporer, it all ties together well. The testing was done with Propylene Glycol, temps of VG and PG would vary, however it was tested for acrolein in the mist, not in chamber with bisulfates. So one could assume this is an area that needs more clarification. Gotta do some more looking, the Ruyan testing did touch on the things tested for, but only under limited conditions as far as number of puffs, and the mist was also on a full cart. For example, running low on e-liquid, dry atty, high power, etc.
NOTE TO SELF: ask somebody!!

Thanks for posting this Kate. It looks like the Ruyan juice was PG, with no VG. Thus no acrolein found.

Vaporer, I also think this is very related, since it is a high-heat/toxicity issue. So I for one am glad we are discussing it.

Acrolein is a strong lacromator, meaning it would take ng quantities to get a mucus membrane response (itch, burn, runny, sneeze, tearing of eyes). I've worked with acrolein, since is is a common synthesis starting material. Just putting a beaker of it at room temp under the nose will set off major "allergic" response. I've gotten ZERO response like that to VG based juices, and I have a very sensitive nose. On the other hand, I am certainly not alone in my somewhat aversion to PG, since it can produce runny nose and headaches for me, as it does with many others. VG, OTOH has a much better track record for lack of allergic responses.

Also, we are not dealing with pure VG, but rather a mixture that has perhaps a little PG, water, flavorings, etc. The vaporization temp could be FAR lower than the BP of pure VG.

Some of my 510 attys glow orange, some do not glow at all. All vape fine.

Acrolein formation from VG requires oxidation, not just dehydration decomposition. Something has to take electrons. Combustion (rxn with O2) would do it, but vaping is not combustion, nor is there anything that would act as an oxidizer present in an atty.

In addition, TW gives the lab report on their 36 mg PG/VG unflavored juice, which has to be vaporized and bombarded (oxidized) with high energy electrons. No acrolein was detected.

Thus empirically I would have to say that acrolein is not being produced. A simple thing would be to analyze the mist of a VG juice, like the chinese did with the PG juice. Until then, we don't really know for sure. But I am leaning strongly towards the opinion that acrolein not being produced with a normal 510 atty and VG juice. Of course, this is OPINION, not necessarily fact. Still looking for more clues.

Besides looking at metal glow colors, is there anything known about the temperatures of an atty heating element? Is it anywhere near 550 C (BP glycerin)?

I'm going to try to do some digging myself on this.

Kurt

[Scottbee]

Just an FYI... you will never see an atty "glow" when it is actually "wetted" with PG or VG liquid. Only when it is "dry burned". The latent heat of vaporization... and just the increase in conductive heat loss pretty much keeps a lid on the coil temperatures.

[Nestran]

If you think you are melting carts, what is happening to your cart filler? The filler, by design, touches the bridge. If your cart is melting then the cart filler would also have to melt. No?

Nestran