Nicotine and nerve pain

[Kurt]

AngusATAT, check your PM from md on BigJim's board. Something's up over there. testing if it is here tonight.

Good, its not here. So it is not my machine. Houston, we have a problem...

[TJPatt72]

Kurt your story brings back memories of what my brother went through. He had a dye test done on his heart when it was acting up to see if he had cardiomyopathy like my Mom had gone through, which he did. But not long after the test he developed the same muscle/nerve problems you are describing with pain that no medications seemed to help with. The doctors told him in a couple of years it would run its course and he would be back to normal. In 2 years he wasn't back to normal. Then they said he had the same thing Dudley Moore had, guess they where right because he didn't make it either. No one in our family history ever had anything like that thus I suspect it was something he picked up due to the dye test, his pain started in that general area which became inflamed. I'm not saying it came out of the hospital necessarily because he worked at a plant that manufactured sandpaper, thus his work environment was filled with dust, chemicals, etc.

As per your question if nicotine has Ever been prescribed for medical conditions I did hear that nicotine patches in high doses (due to smokers benefiting from nicotine) where being tested out on people that had UC (ulcerative colitis) by the medical profession on a UC forum years ago=1996 or 97. The logic behind the nicotine use in this study was that nicotine does calm nerves which they propose are the underlying problems of this. I first heard that high doses of nicotine and similar illegal drug (legal now in some states for medical use) had helped a girl that had UC not have any problems from it. I already smoked but not heavily, thus I increased my smoking and sure enough I have not had very many problems from it and I had quit all medications they had given me for it years ago since none of them helped except for steroids and that sets you up for worse problems down the road.

When I heard about this study being done (shocked since I didn't know on a wide scale people where onto this) I asked my doctor about it and he had heard about the study, but at that time it was ongoing. He did say if they proved it to be true they would only sanction the patches to use medically and not smoking, not surprising news yet I won't use a patch. Many on the forum already suspected if they did prove it to be true they wouldn't pass nicotine off as a medication since they where trying to eradicate smoking back then strongly. I can rarely ever go to the doctor without them asking me if I'm still smoking, how much and that I should stop. Since I use the VA system I'm not sure I should tell them I've cut down on smoking and started vaping instead . I'm going to have to smoke until I can get my lower amp nic juice ramped up to 24mg and see if that helps me cut out the analogs. So far my posting on how to do that question on the forum has ended up being like yours (talk to yourself) yet since I do enough of that with my animals I'm not about to start doing it on forum's :-))))).

If you go Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: CCFA.org: About Ulcerative Colitis & Proctitis
Do a search on "nicotine"
Download Medications v.3-no cover and go to the bottom of page 18 which covers it in general
I'm not signed up on the forum anymore, so I don't know if they are still discussing it there or not.

Google: "ulcerative colitis" & "nicotine study"
Nicotine
...gives University of Maryland Medical Center list on nicotine,
search the page for colitis and you get:
Use - Unlabeled/Investigational:
Management of ulcerative colitis (transdermal)
...on down the page
Ulcerative colitis (unlabeled use): Transdermal: Titrated to 22-25
...References contain a few entries on it too

So yes at least nicotine in patches and gum has been researched for it's medical benefits. Whereas the medical profession may be dragging it's feet in backing it, last I knew people weren’t. My greatest reservation about quitting smoking was the fact I knew it would make me a lot worse off again, but due to it's drawbacks by the impurities in cigs, new tobacco processing, and rising costs I was left with either quitting or smoking tree bark. That is when a newspaper advertisement had a link to an e-cig which I had heard about not long after they first went into production, but I was leery of the China connection so I forgot about it since the battery life was short. Sorry to hear about your medical problem, but I don't find it surprising that nicotine might be helping relieve the pain which means it's relieving more than just the pain but the cause behind the pain whether it's the wrong signals/messages from the brain causing the nerves to miss-fire being calmed by the effects of nicotine or what ever the source is. Ouch I just calculated I've been living with this stuff for 30 years, no wonder I'm so tired of it. Nicotine has only helped in the bowel problems, not with the lack of eating, insomnia, fatigue, low immune system and all the other wonderful stuff that goes with it. So hope the info helps you some or gives you ammo for the doctors who may think nicotine hasn't helped anything.

BTW only found this post after your great post in DIY on sterilization. I'm not stalking you, but was searching to see if you had any other great tips. Glad we both joined this evolution or revolution, although we are still caught up in something that isn't great at least by theory it couldn't be as bad as what we were doing to ourselves. Hopefully I gave you some of the feedback you where looking for.

[Shatosa]

I, also, have FM only mine has a double whammy. If my trigger points are touched, yes just touched, it can put me on the floor and interferes with my breathing. My doctor explained it this way: once the 'cycle' begins, it hurts to expand my chest cavity (part of inhaling). My body is protecting itself from pain by not allowing me to expand the chest cavity, i.e. I have problems breathing. I do shallow breathing exercises and visualization for this until it subsides--only thing I've found that helps.

Along with the FM I have lower back problems from a train wreck I was in when I was 19 (many, MANY moons ago ). And from grinding/clenching my teeth (partly from PTSD--train wreck, flood that took my house and a not so good relationship) I have TMJ. The BEST thing I have found for the TMJ is good old aspirin. Once I feel the onset of the TMJ pain, I take two and within 15 minutes the pain starts to subside. Smoking is next to impossible until the TMJ pain starts to go away. It actually helps to add to it. Guess I'm inhaling too hard at that point due to the pain.

Cigarettes most definitely help with the FM pain and help me deal with the lower back pain. One thing I have found, though, when I take ibuprofen, it seems to make me want to smoke more. My doctor isn't sure what the connection with that is. Same does not happen with aspirin.

There are other medicinal uses for tobacco such as for bee stings. This was used on my son when he was 5 (thankfully someone at the daycare smoked as severe allergic reaction to bee stings run in my family). The sting happened in the afternoon and by the time I picked him up, the area on his arm was smaller than a dime and not swollen, just red. Within a day it was gone totally.

My two cents worth.

The best is yet to come . . . turn the page!

[rave]

Hi Kurt - Thanks so much for sharing your amazing story. I'm also afflicted with a degenerative nerve condition. Mine is multiple sclerosis. MS also damages/destroys the myelin sheath protecting the nerves. I have peripheral neuropathy (numbness, "tingling", the sensation of the limb being asleep) in my arms, hands, legs, feet, upper back, and around my mouth. It's there 24/7. In my case, it seems that the nerves in the areas of the body that are typically the most sensitive such as the fingertips and bottoms of the feet have short-circuited and refuse to work at all. I can't feel the ground if I'm standing still, but I get some pressure sensation if I'm walking or rocking from one foot to another. Without a cane I'd fall flat on my face (and sometimes do that anyhow).

Other areas of skin have hyper-sensitive nerves. Although I used to love walking in the rain, it now feels like ice on my skin, and snowflakes feel like needles. A hair touching my face can be excrutiating. I can no longer tolerate heat which exacerbates my symptoms. Although I once shunned air conditioning, it is now literally a life-saver. The only thing that has ever soothed my "buzzing" has been cold. I sleep with the window and sliding glass door of my bedroom open to the outdoors all year long unless it's forecast to go below 15 degrees! This is in Indiana where the winters can be brutal at times.

I only wish that nicotine provided some sort of relief. It's extremely interesting to me that we both have degenerative nerve diseases causing destruction of the myelin sheath - and yet we don't both achieve relief from nicotine. Just out of curiosity: What mg nic do you consume? I pretty much vape all day but I only use 12 mg.

[SpottedPony]

Wow, that is a really interesting story! I believe that the medicinal qualities of nicotine are not as researched as they could be due to the "super anti" people...you know, the Nazi types that make a living off of being "anti" something - and make your skin crawl to be around.

By sheer observation - it has become accepted fact that there are many diseases tobacco users do not get. It is sad that it had to be by mere observation...not hard research.

There is a company...Targacept...that is throwing quit a bit of nrg into researching the biochemical pathways of nicotine for pharm application. They are a spin off of RJ reynolds..I believe. They actually get "blow back" from drugs that are developed from nicotine research. Think about that ... this is the dogma that the "Anti everything Nazi's" have brough on our "advanced" civilization. A huge percentage of the population fears any drug that has been developed from knowledge gained from researching the pathways of nicotine. Dogma is dangerous...always...but when it reaches these levels...it shed some incite on just how Nazi Germany came to be.

[telsie]

The TMJ is caused by "jaw clenching", also known as "bruxism". I had it so bad when I quit all nicotine about 20 years ago that I needed to get a "night guard" made by the dentist and a prescription for muscle relaxants. The pain was blinding.

You won't find "jaw clenching" in the list of nicotine withdrawal symptoms, but it has been observed in nicotine abstinence. Also, take a look at this book page:
Smoking: psychology and pharmacology - Google Books

Yes, if you are one of the people who experiences clenching, I would guess it would have been tons worse without the vaping. You might try increasing your nicotine in some way and see if that affects it. Options are to try stronger liquid, vape more often, or add another source such as nicotine gum or snus.

Thanks for the info! I've had issues with jaw clenching in my sleep in the past and did wear a night guard for several weeks a few years ago. So I wasn't sure if it was just my old problem returning or it was related to the quitting (if nothing else, I suppose the stress of giving up analogs could cause some clenching!). The good news, though, is the pain has been gone for two days now. I'm hoping it was temporary and I'm past it now.

[jamaesi]

Wow! I had no idea nicotine helps with nerve pain. Before I started vaping I really had no clue about nicotine, I never researched it. It does make sense that nicotine has medical uses, it affects the brain and just about anything that does can have medicinal uses. I remember hearing in the anti-drug classes in school that just one drop of nicotine will kill you and that's why it's bad. It's so ridiculous how they use logical fallacies like that in school, that's a place where they should be teaching you critical thinking! Sure, too much of anything can hurt you. Too much of helpful things can also hurt you, too. Now that I've learned more about the helpful things nicotine can do I've been telling others and they repeat the whole "but one drop of it can kill you, how could it be a good thing?!" Arsenic, cyanide, clostridium botulinum (bacteria that causes botulism), and posion hemlock all have medical uses and too much can kill you, too. Chemotherapy is basically poison and a carcinogenic but it still works to fight cancer.

Now that I think about it, when my pain was bad I would smoke a cig and feel better. I just thought it distracted me but the thing about severe chronic pain is that you just can't be distracted from it- that's what severe chronic pain is, something that just completely highjacks your nerves and brain. It's so upsetting when people who have only experienced mild pain that a tylenol will take away tell me things like "if you just don't think about the pain it will go away" and that "you're making yourself miserable by focusing on the pain."

My pain got worse when I started vaping, I guess it's because you get less nicotine when you vape and I was vaping med-low nicotine strength. My plan was to wean myself off nicotine, well, not gonna do that now. Now that I've heard nicotine helps with nerve pain I got high nicotine liquid and I'm trying to vape a lot. I just woke up because of the nerve pain I am in, I got up, made a sammich, took my painkillers and muscle relaxers. I've been sitting here vaping high strength nicotine liquid and I already feel better and it's not because of the painkillers or muscle relaxers, they haven't had near enough time to kick in...

I'm 22 now and since I was 11ish I've had back pain. I've never been in an accident or had any back trauma. I've had four herniated discs total (including the current 2 I have now) and I also have spinal stenosis, degenerative disc disease, functional scoliosis, osteoarthritis, and osteopena. I've not been able to find a cause for all this. It's like my body thinks I'm a 65 year old woman.

I currently have two badly herniated discs; L3-4 which has been herniated for three long awful years, and L4-5 which was my first herniated disc and it has reherniated... I have horrible nerve pain in my left leg, it's never been this bad with my other herniated discs. I'm having back surgery on November 11th, it will be my fourth back surgery.

I also heard that nicotine helps with post-surgical pain, so I hope it helps me. The study they did that with was with just men, though. Men and woman are very different, especially in medicine. For example, we probably wouldn't have such a flu vaccine shortage if women were receiving half the dose of the vaccine. Women don't need the full dose, women are much better at men at making the antibodies needed. Women also have worse side effects from the vaccine than men do, if they were only getting half the dose they would be able to handle it better with less or milder side effects...

[Kurt]

Hi Kurt - Thanks so much for sharing your amazing story. I'm also afflicted with a degenerative nerve condition. Mine is multiple sclerosis. MS also damages/destroys the myelin sheath protecting the nerves. I have peripheral neuropathy (numbness, "tingling", the sensation of the limb being asleep) in my arms, hands, legs, feet, upper back, and around my mouth. It's there 24/7. In my case, it seems that the nerves in the areas of the body that are typically the most sensitive such as the fingertips and bottoms of the feet have short-circuited and refuse to work at all. I can't feel the ground if I'm standing still, but I get some pressure sensation if I'm walking or rocking from one foot to another. Without a cane I'd fall flat on my face (and sometimes do that anyhow).

Other areas of skin have hyper-sensitive nerves. Although I used to love walking in the rain, it now feels like ice on my skin, and snowflakes feel like needles. A hair touching my face can be excrutiating. I can no longer tolerate heat which exacerbates my symptoms. Although I once shunned air conditioning, it is now literally a life-saver. The only thing that has ever soothed my "buzzing" has been cold. I sleep with the window and sliding glass door of my bedroom open to the outdoors all year long unless it's forecast to go below 15 degrees! This is in Indiana where the winters can be brutal at times.

I only wish that nicotine provided some sort of relief. It's extremely interesting to me that we both have degenerative nerve diseases causing destruction of the myelin sheath - and yet we don't both achieve relief from nicotine. Just out of curiosity: What mg nic do you consume? I pretty much vape all day but I only use 12 mg.

Rave, thanks for sharing your story! GBS and MS are very similar in some ways, both involving the nerves, myelin and crazy neuropathies. Its often so hard to figure out patterns with medications, especially when the medical community is in general not pro-nic. So many variables to change and see the effects of some drug, and I've pretty much been on my own on this one, even though it was recommended to me by my brother. I've met in person only one other person who had GBS, and that was in the hospital when I was still in the middle of the onset. There is a GBS discussion board, but honestly when I am treated effectively, and not in chronic pain, I don't want to hang out there a lot...I want to get things done! I should post about my experiences with nic, though.

I vape around 14 mg/mL for normal work-time. I have 18 gm with breakfast and AM tea (drinking less caffeine in general now though). If I really crave an analog, I may top off the cart with a couple drops of 24 mg. I was normally just vaping 12 mg, or lower, but I had a bit of a nerve meltdown. When I increased the nic, and got some rest, the pain left and hasn't been back. Of course, this does NOT mean the increased nic took care of it, only that the pain went away at that time. GBS pain is strange and sometimes fleeting, requiring simply a good night's sleep at times, and many days other times. I can say that in these last 6 weeks or so, on average I am typing much more (especially since I started coming here!) now, and experiencing much less pain. My point: these are just observations, and I am just one data point. Am I experiencing less pain than when I was smoking? Can't tell yet, as when I was smoking I would still have a meltdown every couple months or so. Less pain than before I started smoking? Oh, yes, no comparison to THOSE dark days.

Perhaps you should increase the nic. Try it and see. We are actually in different places though. GBS starts out with myelin inflammation and destruction very rapidly, but this onset generally stops after 21 days. It is then the repair process that is so painful, as well as any axonal damage that will likely never be fully repaired, and a general tendency for inflammation. To my knowledge, MS is slow demyelination that does not stop, and does not repair. I don't know if nicotine would have helped me when I was in the hospital and still in the onset demylination stages. It seems nic is better for nerve inflammation, rather than abject conduction problems like you are experiencing. However, increasing the nic may well give you some relief! And yes, ... can also be very good for nerve pain, but it depends on the strain of plant. Other nerve tonics that work, but might sedate too: skullcap, vallerian, kava kava, rhodiola rosea (definitely NOT a sedative!!)

I also think that in the beginning, before I was making my own juices, I was pretty sure PG was causing allergic responses in my head and nose, and it was in that time I was experiencing nerve pain too (which often goes along with seasonal allergies). Since I've been making my own no-PG juices, I have not had nerve issues...but then maybe in the early days I was experiencing nic withdrawal, not PG allergy. Don't really feel like upping the PG to find out though...not as fond of the taste as VG.

Like I said, I have observations and many variables. There is evidence that nic helps nerve pain, but it may depend on what kind of nerve pain. It seems trying 18 or 24 mg even if briefly would tell you. In your situation, I would also be very tempted to move to CA, or one of the other enlightened states, if you don't live in one of them now.

Best of luck, Rave, and please let us know what you find out! I've sure someone will be able to use the information.

[Kurt]

TJ, OMG!! I actually HAVE Crohn's disease (CD), too! This is going to sound crazy, but for about 9 months early on in my GBS recovery, I dated a woman, and is often the case, I quit smoking for her. I would just gut out the nerve pain periods. But in that time I developed Crohn's disease, passing blood and tissue. It was diagnosed by scope, so it seems it was what it was. Then we broke up, and I gravitated back to smoking. Most symptoms of CD went away, including blood and tissue and gut pain! I never knew why, but I am thinking about this now, and CD flairup is another issue I have always had when trying to quit analogs! Perhaps I know why now! BTW, I have had far LESS issues with CD even compared to smoking a pack a day of Winston LIghts. I think there may actaully be some things in analogs that aggrevate CD a bit, but the nic helps almost completely. Now with nic only, I am amazed at how well behaved I am down there!

In fact I would not be surprised if people that quit analogs and nic completely, the cold-turkey folks, have higher incidence of CD. After all, quitting is shown to lead to constipation and other gastric problems.

Ok, so that's at least two things I could, if I had to, go to a doc for to get a script to vape. If vaping becomes perscription only, that is. Oh, to have insurance pay for a chuck and life supply to excellent juice. (And then he pinched himself and realized THAT was a dream!). Why is it that I pay for insurance that allows only drugs that don't work, and anything that does work is under attack or illegal, at least in PA? It all goes back to rants I made early on here: there is no approved healthcare here, only disease care, or managed death.

[Kurt]

Jamaesi, hey maybe something as simple as increasing nic is working, at least to offset the acute pain! I do not envy your situation. It sounds like your spine is trying to self destruct! The injuries you have been through or are going through are pretty difficult to treat painwise, and you may well need something much stronger than nic. There are electrical stimulation devices that have proven to be fairly effective (the name I am remembering is Beck, electro-stimulation therapy, or something like that). And certain strains of less a less legal plant...

Keep us informed here of what you find out over the next few days! I'm sure I'm not the only one that wants to hear about it!