Fda approval!

[Josh_S]

I think these concerns go much deeper then E-smoking. There was a research facility in new mexico, I forgot the name of it, but I read a case study about it in college. They were making great progress towards cancer research. All of the sudden they disappeared, the reason was that they went bankrupt. Even if that was the case, looks like no one funded them, I wonder why.

Let me give an analogy with another example from another industry. Anyone hear of the EV1 electric car? Make a long story short it was a very efficient totally electric powered car that everyone loved who got one. Because of its great success GM seized them all and impounded the cars never to be seen again. Why? Because it was a threat to the combustible engine, an ancient technology that was kept around for profit by both the automotive industries as well as the oil industries. Giant corporations do not like change when they make tons of money off something and have their assets already invested. This same example can be applied to the Pharm companies as well. Its the same principle.

"It is well that the people of society do not understand our banking and monetary system. For if they did, I believe there would be a revolution by the morning." -Henry Ford, Ford Motor Company


Absolutely right, paladinx, when we really study monetary capitalism economics, it gets harder to blame major corporations (tobacco and pharm), but easier to blame our economic ideology. Ever heard this one, "Don’t hate the player, hate the game?" It goes well beyond the electric car; Rudolf Diesel spent his entire life creating an engine that can run off pure vegetable oil. He succeeded in building the Diesel engine in the 1800's and even won many world prizes for his amazing technology that allowed humanity freedom from petro oil by harvest crops for energy! Unfortunately, just like the electric car, just like the e-cigg, capitalism will be threatened by the lack of cyclical consumerism (as well as other factors) that is required to "keep the economy going". Rudolf Deisel was murdered after his success, shortly after, standard and poor created something called "diesel fuel", successfully erasing the life, work, and altruistic accomplishments Diesel had in mind.
I mean look, when I found out my car was INVENTED to run of vege oil, I was like, "Why didn’t anybody tell me?!!!" Of course, I answered my own question. Why would someone tell me?! Who would waste their money on a commercial or article telling me to use FREE oil i can pickup from my local panda express?! what PROFIT would be made telling me this? Profit would only be lost. Every thing you own, your clothes, your computer, your watch, your food, has all been delivered by a diesel truck and/or diesel freight ship. Can you believe that I put straight, 100%, used FREE vege oil in my gas tank of a totally stock Mercedes, NO conversion?


Also, Google how the FDA cooperated with Bayer to intentionally sell products known to be tainted with HIV to 3rd world countries only to make a profit, they knowingly killed thousands to make a profit. GOOGLE IT.
I wish these were isolated cases, it is unfortunate that beg all of you to consider watching the documentary called Zeitgeist.



"They must find it hard; those whom have taken the authority as the truth, and not the truth as the authority."

[Vape]

"It is well that the people of society do not understand our banking and monetary system. For if they did, I believe there would be a revolution by the morning." -Henry Ford, Ford Motor Company


Absolutely right, paladinx, when we really study monetary capitalism economics, it gets harder to blame major corporations (tobacco and pharm), but easier to blame our economic ideology. Ever heard this one, "Don’t hate the player, hate the game?" It goes well beyond the electric car; Rudolf Diesel spent his entire life creating an engine that can run off pure vegetable oil. He succeeded in building the Diesel engine in the 1800's and even won many world prizes for his amazing technology that allowed humanity freedom from petro oil by harvest crops for energy! Unfortunately, just like the electric car, just like the e-cigg, capitalism will be threatened by the lack of cyclical consumerism (as well as other factors) that is required to "keep the economy going". Rudolf Deisel was murdered after his success, shortly after, standard and poor created something called "diesel fuel", successfully erasing the life, work, and altruistic accomplishments Diesel had in mind.
I mean look, when I found out my car was INVENTED to run of vege oil, I was like, "Why didn’t anybody tell me?!!!" Of course, I answered my own question. Why would someone tell me?! Who would waste their money on a commercial or article telling me to use FREE oil i can pickup from my local panda express?! what PROFIT would be made telling me this? Profit would only be lost. Every thing you own, your clothes, your computer, your watch, your food, has all been delivered by a diesel truck and/or diesel freight ship. Can you believe that I put straight, 100%, used FREE vege oil in my gas tank of a totally stock Mercedes, NO conversion?


Also, Google how the FDA cooperated with Bayer to intentionally sell products known to be tainted with HIV to 3rd world countries only to make a profit, they knowingly killed thousands to make a profit. GOOGLE IT.
I wish these were isolated cases, it is unfortunate that beg all of you to consider watching the documentary called Zeitgeist.



"They must find it hard; those whom have taken the authority as the truth, and not the truth as the authority."

Sent shivers down my spine, and it's true.

Commercialistic Society, welcome to America! I'm not a socialist or communist, I'm a commercialist!

[davidb]

Zeitgeist, at least the first one that I couldnt even finish, was filled with dumbed down information that was just not accurate. It honestly seemed like the equivalent of explaining the details of how an engine works to a child whos knowledge about cars is limited to his tonka trucks and matchbox cars.

[jesrf]

Guys, relax about the EV1--conspiracy theory.

It was cool looking (in its day), but other not especially practical. It was little more than a prototype that they (GM)made about 2000 of (over 5 years or so). They cost in excess of $80,000 a piece to make. The originals used lead-acid batteries and the later models Nickel Metal Hydride.

The battery breakthrough that was expected never came, so the car was discontinued. I drove one back in the late 1990's (I live in detroit, it was a manufacturers vehicle, all the leases were out west). They had very limited range in cold weather (batteries dont like the cold) and only max 150 mile range even in warm weather. They also didnt like the heat (like in Arizona, where some batteries exploded). The car was VERY quiet as I recall, with ok pickup, but fairly small (two seater, not a lot of leg or cargo room) As I remember they were built to help meet some Zero emission stnadard California was setting up and later rescinded (another reason the program was discontinued)

GM didn't sell them, but rather destroyed most of them when the plug was pulled on the program because the technology used in many facets of the vehicle was valuable. They didnt want Toyota or Ford or Honda buying Millions of dollars worth of technology investment for less than $100k from some former lessee..... And, the experimental nature of the vehicle plus the lack of parts made the realities of private ownership impossible. When you build a car, you have to be able to supply parts for 15 years.... no way was that gonna happen.

Believe me, I know many Current (and many now unemployed) gm Auto execs, if they could've marketed an electric car that would have been half as good as a combustion engine, they would have.

For those of you pining for a true plug-in electric, the Chevy Volt will be out in a few months, and it contains many of the technologies GM's Advance Technologies Group innovated. Many of the other technologies were used in GM's massive line of hybrid and alternate fuel vehicles.....

visit gm-volt.com

This Wednesday (May 20, 2009) GM Guru Bob Lutz will be on the David Lettermen show and scold Dave about his misconceptions regarding the Chevy Volt.....

I think these concerns go much deeper then E-smoking. There was a research facility in new mexico, I forgot the name of it, but I read a case study about it in college. They were making great progress towards cancer research. All of the sudden they disappeared, the reason was that they went bankrupt. Even if that was the case, looks like no one funded them, I wonder why.

Let me give an analogy with another example from another industry. Anyone hear of the EV1 electric car? Make a long story short it was a very efficient totally electric powered car that everyone loved who got one. Because of its great success GM seized them all and impounded the cars never to be seen again. Why? because it was a threat to the combustible engine, an ancient technology that was kept around for profit by both the automotive industries as well as the oil industries. Giant corporations do not like change when they make tons of money off something and have their assets already invested. This same example can be applied to the Pharm companies as well. Its the same principle.

[paladinx]

Jes, is that why everyone who had the car wanted to keep it? because it was not practical or efficient? All of the people who had the cars were very passionate about keeping their cars and rallied to stop them from being impounded.

You are giving the BS reason GM gave. They launched those cars out to people as a test market, and that test market loved the car. And the new battery was developed for the car, it just never had a chance because they took the cars off the market as fast as they could. They actually didn't expect it to be as successful as it was.

When you are a company and you make billions or trillions off something. Or if all your assets are invested in something. whether it be the machines that make a certain engine, or all the parts that go into that engine, or the rigs that dig up oil, you do not want these things to change. You are going to use whatever influence and power and lobbyists to keep things the way they are. Its just common sense. Why the hell do you think Bush and all the republicans of the time were far more interested in talking about the hydrogen fuel cells then a fully electric car like the ev1?? Its to take attention away from cars like the EV1. Hydrogen fuel cells will not be ready for another 30 plus years at the least. They know this. Thats why they push it. Bottom line is they had an effective fully electric car with inferior battery technology. They ditched it completely and now we are starting to get back into it with hybrids. IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO, the combustible engine would be ancient history because it is ancient technology.

[jesrf]

There were quite a few people who wanted to keep it.

There were (are ) also a lot of people who think BETA rocked the house over VHS (though it didn't)....

There were people who thought Quadrophonic sound was the shizzle too..... But c'mon, there are good reasons these products didnt stick around (how 'bout HD-DVD vs. Blue Ray for a more recent example???)

None of these products were "better" than the ones that killed them off, but you always find somebody to wave the conspiracy flag, and it just doesnt make sense.....

Hell, look at it this way, I can't get a E-Cigarette that will last me a full day on a charge, but I'm supposed to be able to make a good, affordable car that can last for years??????????????????????????????????????????

Hell, if the story was that GM killed say, Tesla Motors or Joe Smith's Electric Car, I might buy into it. But GM (Or Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes etc.) isn't Joe Blow and they arent in the business of selling fuel (I drove on E-85 all summer last year---very little Oil in that), All the Manufacturers made (at one time) a natural gas vehicle, fairly cheap to produce, very interchangeable with gas powered vehicles, average cost equivalent is $1.50 a gallon in many places. No one is screaming that that is a conspiracy!?

Your e-cigarette battery goes bad in a month or two, but people would expect a battery pack in an electric vehicle to last 100,000 miles (and now they do, they didnt back then....)....

Interesting side note, most current hybrids extend the life of the batteries by never letting the charge fall below 40% and never getting more than 75% charged......

Look, I get that there are certain people who Loved this thing passionately. Hell, I had a 1981 Cadillac CoupeDeville, De Elegance. With a Diesel engine. I Loved it. I (routinely) got 30+ mile to the gallon in 1985! In a Full (real Full not todays watered down Full) size car. I could easily go 600 miles on a single tank of diesel, with all of my friends aboard and a HUGE trunk full of stuff. But most people hated it. It didnt have a lot of horsepower (merging on the Freeway was occasionally worrisome) tons of torgue, but no HP.
And, it had other issues. Over all they were poorly received because of emissions (never bothered me, probably bothered the guy behind me) and the engines had issues because GM built it on a gas engine platdform, and it really wasnt designed for the compression. But guess what, I never had a problem. But I dont think GM was committed into a conspiracy to KILL the diesel!!

Diesel is still preferable to electric, really. 40 mpg, no problem, engine last 250k miles, no problem. Did the Big 3 conspire to kill it, no. Most Americans didnt want it, just like most Americans didnt want an electric car until gas broke the $3 a gallon barrier, then people went hmmmmmmm......

GM and Ford make money when others invent things, then they buy them up and make real money with them...... No conspiracy here..... really.

As for GM taking the cars off the markets as fast as they could (?)They built 1100 of them over 3 years.

They were on the road for about 6 years. 1100 owners, does not a market create ...... In fact GM tried to lease them in Arizona and California and was only able to lease about 80% of them...... They couldnt even lease all 1100!!!

I could go on and on , but here.....try this link.....
Ev1 — Autoblog Green

Jes, is that why everyone who had the car wanted to keep it? because it was not practical or efficient? All of the people who had the cars were very passionate about keeping their cars and rallied to stop them from being impounded.

You are giving the BS reason GM gave. They launched those cars out to people as a test market, and that test market loved the car. And the new battery was developed for the car, it just never had a chance because they took the cars off the market as fast as they could. They actually didn't expect it to be as successful as it was.

When you are a company and you make billions or trillions off something. Or if all your assets are invested in something. whether it be the machines that make a certain engine, or all the parts that go into that engine, or the rigs that dig up oil, you do not want these things to change. You are going to use whatever influence and power and lobbyists to keep things the way they are. Its just common sense. Why the hell do you think Bush and all the republicans of the time were far more interested in talking about the hydrogen fuel cells then a fully electric car like the ev1?? Its to take attention away from cars like the EV1. Hydrogen fuel cells will not be ready for another 30 plus years at the least. They know this. Thats why they push it. Bottom line is they had an effective fully electric car with inferior battery technology. They ditched it completely and now we are starting to get back into it with hybrids. IF THEY REALLY WANTED TO, the combustible engine would be ancient history because it is ancient technology.

[paladinx]

Well your always going to have 2 sides to every argument, its up to the individual to maybe get some truth out of both sides. Some things you say does make sense, but I disagree with other parts. You cannot compare E-cigarette batteries made in some Chinese sweatshop to some of the advanced battery technology that is out there.

and . "But GM (Or Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes etc.) isn't Joe Blow and they arent in the business of selling fuel"

So you are saying they have no business in fuel whatsoever? Interesting. I would imagine they are strongly tied to the oil industry since that is the fuel source that powers their vehicles. rofl.

I guess the whole point I see with the EV1 project is that it is possible to get away from gas and oil. There are many ways that have been discussed like some of the things you brought up. But personally, I do not think it has been in any ones best interest to get away from oil and gas altogether. That includes not only the oil/gas industries but the automotive industries. Like I have stated earlier, everything is tied together. The combustible engine and every part being manufactured is tied to the automotive and oil/gas industries. And if you do not think there is a big connection between all of them, then I dont know what to say.

It took many years of much scientific data and proof to prove the effects of global warming to the world. I was skeptical myself, but with all the evidence now, no one can deny it. Now that we are embarking on a more energy conscious trend, we are seeing more and more hybrids. They still are reluctant to get away from fuel all together, so what they will do now is make hybrid engines while at the same time we will see an increase in gas prices. So we will pay more, but use less.

And not to go on and on, the ev1 was a revolutionary technology of its time in a way. It was 100x more efficient than any hydrogen fuel cell car that has been talked about for the past 2 decades. The battery technology has increased threefold since the first Ev1, and whatever problems the car might have had, Most of them would have been solved by now for sure. But the interest was not there. Why? because no one wants to revolutionize their products and invested assets when they do not need to. and why is that? because people are not aware of how stagnant some industries have become even though we think they are full of competition. There are many agreements going on out there that most people are completely unaware of.

For instance. coke and pepsi compete, but there are price agreements, and if something like a new health trend goes against soda, or carbonated drinks lets say, U bet they will be working together on certain things for a mutual benefit.

[eric]

"It is well that the people of society do not understand our banking and monetary system. For if they did, I believe there would be a revolution by the morning." -Henry Ford, Ford Motor Company


Absolutely right, paladinx, when we really study monetary capitalism economics, it gets harder to blame major corporations (tobacco and pharm), but easier to blame our economic ideology. Ever heard this one, "Don’t hate the player, hate the game?" It goes well beyond the electric car; Rudolf Diesel spent his entire life creating an engine that can run off pure vegetable oil. He succeeded in building the Diesel engine in the 1800's and even won many world prizes for his amazing technology that allowed humanity freedom from petro oil by harvest crops for energy! Unfortunately, just like the electric car, just like the e-cigg, capitalism will be threatened by the lack of cyclical consumerism (as well as other factors) that is required to "keep the economy going". Rudolf Deisel was murdered after his success, shortly after, standard and poor created something called "diesel fuel", successfully erasing the life, work, and altruistic accomplishments Diesel had in mind.
I mean look, when I found out my car was INVENTED to run of vege oil, I was like, "Why didn’t anybody tell me?!!!" Of course, I answered my own question. Why would someone tell me?! Who would waste their money on a commercial or article telling me to use FREE oil i can pickup from my local panda express?! what PROFIT would be made telling me this? Profit would only be lost. Every thing you own, your clothes, your computer, your watch, your food, has all been delivered by a diesel truck and/or diesel freight ship. Can you believe that I put straight, 100%, used FREE vege oil in my gas tank of a totally stock Mercedes, NO conversion?


Also, Google how the FDA cooperated with Bayer to intentionally sell products known to be tainted with HIV to 3rd world countries only to make a profit, they knowingly killed thousands to make a profit. GOOGLE IT.
I wish these were isolated cases, it is unfortunate that beg all of you to consider watching the documentary called Zeitgeist.



"They must find it hard; those whom have taken the authority as the truth, and not the truth as the authority."

I remember hearing the story about the Bayer medication tainted with HIV.

The name of the drug was "Factor VIII" (or, Factor 8), a medication used to treat Hemophilia. The tainted medication was actually being prescribed in the USA, unbeknown to doctors that it was indeed infected with HIV.

From what I understand, many children were given this drug, and thus infected. Funny how not one word of this was spoken in the political theater parade performed over the past two nights on their Kennedy Tobacco Bill debate on the Floor, but instead our Senators spewed nonsense rhetoric on how useful and necessary the FDA is.

Of course the FDA allowed Bayer to pull the products out off our doctors' medicine closets, failing to recognize any responsibility on Bayer's part to destroy the tainted drugs. Instead, Bayer recalled all of the Factor VIII in the US and thought it only fair to instead drop it all on Japan, Spain and France. Hardly third world countries as Josh mistakenly stated.

It's flat-out evil.

[The Rain Man]

This is the long thread post I presume?

[Shan123]

:: pokes head into a thread I haven't trod before ::

I do not understand any rationale for banning e-cigs themselves... the hardware. Especially since people can and do vape no-nic liquid. It is not necessarily a "drug delivery device," so any talk of banning the devices should be indefensible and an unmistakable symptom of recto-cranial inversion.

But I AM concerned about what will happen with the liquid. Even if it isn't banned or made Rx... best case, it becomes an OTC drug, like the gum. And the packaging/labeling requirements alone will become a huge burden to small suppliers. The FDA's gonna want batch testing to verify that a liquid contains the stated amount of nicotine, and they're gonna want those huge annoying Drug Facts boxes on those little tiny bottles, and probably childproof packaging. Flavorings may be prohibited because of that "attractive to children" garbage. No one small will be able to compete in this business, because the costs of compliance will be prohibitive, so our huge corporate overlords will be handed a new way to profit from us.

The closest "analog" (sorry) to vaping I can think of is Nicotrol inhalers, which are Rx. The nicotine comes in 10mg child-resistant carts (4mg delivered, it says) that you plug into a white housing with a mouthpiece. I'm sitting here looking at a nearly full 168-cart box that did my BF no good and in fact expired over a year ago. Great smoking cessation method, that.

Sorry if this is just a rambling n00b post restating things that have been posted 1000 times elsewhere, but it really just hit me today that the liquid is much more potentially problematic than the hardware... so the newborn vaper takes to her keyboard to rant, LOL. If there's a thread with more extensive discussion of this, please point me there and I'll be grateful (I did skip over a few pages of this thread).