Update on Banning of Oregon E cigarette Sales

[SheerLuckHolmes]

What distresses me is this prevailing cultural belief that everything - EVERYTHING - boils down to an 'US vs. THEM' mentality.

When are people going to start living their lives from a 'We are all in the same boat' mentality. Even in the same boat there are individuals that have different desires and needs. But these different needs and desires can be accomodated without the stamping out and destuction of 'the other side' as we see played out over and over again from politics to religion to sports to which breakfast cereal to eat.

[Surf Monkey]

Never. Us vs Them includes an implicit power relationship.

[zero7starz]

Did anyone ever watch the movie Thank You For Smoking? In the movie, the main character is snatched and they attempted to kill him by placing a ton of nic patches on him. And yes, it did almost kill him. So don't try to say that these are regulated quantities. But then again, taking an abundance of anything can kill you- why should this be any different?

[Mac]

MissVapor , thanks for that, it is eye-opening. May I also make a point that people who promote e-cigs by in-your-face demonstrations should take heart, this is what can happen. People will not be impressed, they miss the whole point except for the blatant disregard of the sensibilities people have about smoking in general, vaping inside around others, kids and old folks. Save that for home, or a tolerant work place. This is a touchy situation, especially now when it seems that people's rights are disappearing before our eyes. Education and promoting a product doesn't work if it's stuffed down somebody's throat. But also we want to retain our right to have our PV's and be able to buy supplies, so we walk a fine line till all this gets sorted. We also want to be safe. Fine line heck, this is a tight-rope we walk on.

I am not going to quit my job to make some anti smoking jerk more comfortable in their misconception or because it doesn't satisfy the public image viewed by a corrupt government. If use in public was really the problem they would have already passed federal vaping bans in public places. The problem is one of greed and control. To that there is no solution.

[waveho]

I think the basic undeniable premise is simple: Former and current smokers get the e-cig concept fully; non-smokers do not and will never get it. Ironically, all we can hope for is that there are many current and former smokers in high government positions on many levels.... As a former "bureaucrat," I can attest that there ARE.... for what it's worth.

[PlanetScribbles]

The state Attorney General (AG) got involved and gave the companies 72 hrs to prove their claim 'safer'.

This is what annoys me about the state. That is utter bull.
That is like me stating as fact that Dr Pepper is safer to drink than neat vodka and being asked to prove it! Ummm ... STATING THE OBVIOUS?!?!
I sometimes wonder what qualifies these people to run our lives, as it certainly isn't common sense. You would get more sense, even latitude, from a cactus!

I needed to get that off my chest.

[Duckies]

Technically, one could also pull the wool out of 40 cartridges and swallow them too....

The difference is a measured dose with a finite amount. When you start seeing people getting a brick of Vicodin for pain and they get to take an icepick and chop off chunks (doses) at their discretion, lemme know....and it's not even a liquid. Liquids are more easily absorbed into the skin than pills.

This is about the best analogy I have seen.

It is all about controlled dosages. Yes, someone could take twice the dose, or the whole bottle even of a given prescription, but the point is that it is dispensed in approved amounts.

If the FDA *ever* stamps their seal of approval on these, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will ONLY allow prefilled carts to be sold via prescription. I would be surprised if you could even get a month long prescription for more than 30 carts thanks to the vendors touting that they are the equivalent of an entire pack of cigs.

[Territoo]

Duckies,
FINALLY a consumer who actually has some foresight.... I've been saying this for ages... hence why Liberty Stix doesn't sell anything but pre-filled carts....and why the FDA is moving us along with our navigating to comply with their protocols.... SORRY FOLKS...

If you want your e-cigs you are gonna have to understand that concessions to unlimited nicotine solutions is not viable.

In theory your argument is valid, but pratically, I haven't found the cartridge to be a satisfing delivery method. No matter who I bought them from or what mod I made to them, they always produce vapor for a very short time before they have to be changed or topped off.

I find no difference in the frequency I have to top off a cartridge or reload by dripping. Thus, if I only use prefilled cartridges, I'd be going through a lot of them per day and wasting a lot of the residual liquid in the cartridge. Not very financially feasable, and difficult to quantitate how much nic used in a day, since we do not know how much volume is in each cartridge (it can vary by size and by distributor) and what percentage of the liquid was consumed.

A person using only liquid can monitor his daily usage very easily. Say yesterday, I vaped 3ml of 24mg nic juice. My day's consumtion of nicotine was 72mg. Today I switched to 18mg and vaped 3.5ml of juice. Today, I took in 63mg of nicotine.

If cartridges were better designed such that only 20% of juice remained and the volume was always pretty close to the same (say 0.5ml for XYZ size), then I could say that yesterday I vaped 10 carts of 18mg, thus using (10x0.5x18mg= 90mg minus 18mg (20% of 90) 72mg. Today, I vaped 14 carts of 11mg using 61.6mg total for the day. (14x0.5x11mg=77-15.4= 61.6)

Bottom line, the problem w/ carts is the poor delivery method and inconsistency among the product. Fix that and you got yurself a valid argument.

[ElectricNicotine]

The following quote was an emailed reply by David Hart, Senior Assistant Attorney General Financial Fraud/Consumer Protection in Oregon
and is taken with permission from the very end of this blog post about Oregon's supposed ecig banning -

electricnicotine.com/government/oregon-did-not-ban-ecigs




"DOJ has not banned electronic cigarettes. We are taking action against e-cig vendors who misrepresent the safety of these products. The UTPA prohibits deceptive promotion of any product, including electronic cigarettes.

Two of the products that DOJ investigated are e-cigarettes sold by Smoking Everywhere and NJOY. The national distributors for both products were served with official Notice that the Attorney General believes their promotion of e-cigs violates the UTPA and they were offered an opportunity to avoid litigation by agreeing not sell e-cigs in Oregon until it is determined whether these products must be approved by FDA.

If electronic cigarettes do not need to be approved by FDA, the companies would be able to resuming selling e-cigs in Oregon so long as they possess evidence to support their promotional claims.

Two vendors of electronic cigarettes - TA Travel Centers and Pilot Travel Centers - already signed such agreements. Both NJOY and SMOKING EVERYWHERE have voluntarily agreed to stop doing business in Oregon while we try to negotiate a settlement.

Although DOJ is looking at a number of e-cig products, thus far, we are only taking action against NJOY and Smoking Everywhere."

[Territoo]

My previous post got me thinking...how much nicotine exposure in vaping compared to smoking.

I pulled this quote off of Wiki:

"American cigarettes contain about 9 mg of nicotine, but because much of the nicotine is burned off, a smoker gets about 1 mg of nicotine in every cigarette."

So a pack per day smoker (20 analogs) goes through 180mg of nicotine a day, but adsorbs 18mg a day.

Does anyone know how much of the nicotine that is vaped is adsorbed?

If I were to assume that 1/9 of vaped nicotine is adsorbed, just like in smoking, the my 3ml of 24mg/day vaper would adsorb 16mg of nicotine.

"In tobacco smoke, nicotine "rides" on small particles of tar."

Would the lack of tar in vapor increase or decrease the amount adsorbed?

I guess one way to determine this is compare blood levels of nicotine after vaping or smoking equivalent amounts of nicotine. Get a hundred people to smoke a 9mg analog and an hundred to vape 1/2ml of 18mg nic juice. I volunteer to be in the vaping group.