An idea for avoiding FDA approval or control

[LaceyUnderall]

Welcome cymri! You appear to be a knowledgeable addition around here...

I have a question for you! I have this blossoming idea about going homeopathic with our liquid. It is my understanding that the HPUS nicotine drug sheet states that OTC would be 6X, RX is 3X and HPN is 1X. Now, obviously we are not going to benefit from 6X. And technically, I do not even see how a fuss could be raised on the no-nicotine solutions.

Do you have any insight on homeopathic?

[TropicalBob]

Very nice posts. Good to have you here. This might seem a Catch-22: Nicotine would be forbidden as poison in any strong form we could use for our own mix; but as soon as a manufacturer dilutes it for use in a non-poisonous way, it becomes a "new drug" to the FDA.

Poisonous concentration? Illegal. Non-poisonous mix using nicotine? Unapproved new drug.

I like your thinking .. a lot. Please keep posting your thoughts here. You have valuable knowledge and insight into a thorny problem.

[Cymri]

thank you both for the welcome. Now I'm going to post this so I can get my n00b self at 15 and can hopefully paste a link. brb

[Cymri]

Welcome cymri! You appear to be a knowledgeable addition around here...

I have a question for you! I have this blossoming idea about going homeopathic with our liquid. It is my understanding that the HPUS nicotine drug sheet states that OTC would be 6X, RX is 3X and HPN is 1X. Now, obviously we are not going to benefit from 6X. And technically, I do not even see how a fuss could be raised on the no-nicotine solutions.

Do you have any insight on homeopathic?

Hi Lacey! You have posted some great stuff on this topic. I'm a bit confused about this homeopathic approach idea though. Here is a paper on Nico Water's homeopathic offering: http://www.hpus.com/nicopetitionltrhead%20final.pdf
The HPCUS is pretty up in arms in there about Nico Water supposedly defying their 6X policy for nicotinum by going 5X in their product to 4mg nicotine/500 ml water. Even so, that is only 0.008 mg nicotine/ml. Considering I use 36 mg/ml Riskee Yuice, I'm not seeing how a homeopathic eliquid could work for me.

Now that is not to say that there wouldn't be a market out there interested in such a preparation, but from my point of view the goal for a truly sanctioned eliquid should approximate the 1-1.5 mg of nicotine delivered to the system by an analog cigarette.

This is an area that gets really strange to me thinking about our current eliquid formulations. There's supposed to be about 20 drops in a ml of liquid. So for my 36 mg Riskee Yuice, that means there should be about 1.8 mg of nicotine per drop. Thats alot! But I sure don't feel like I am getting that much. Where does it go? Is my cartridge getting super nicated? Is the 1.5 mg number floating around for nicotine absorbed from a cigarette wrong?

[LaceyUnderall]

Hi Lacey! You have posted some great stuff on this topic. I'm a bit confused about this homeopathic approach idea though. Here is a paper on Nico Water's homeopathic offering: http://www.hpus.com/nicopetitionltrhead%20final.pdf
The HPCUS is pretty up in arms in there about Nico Water supposedly defying their 6X policy for nicotinum by going 5X in their product to 4mg nicotine/500 ml water. Even so, that is only 0.008 mg nicotine/ml. Considering I use 36 mg/ml Riskee Yuice, I'm not seeing how a homeopathic eliquid could work for me.

Now that is not to say that there wouldn't be a market out there interested in such a preparation, but from my point of view the goal for a truly sanctioned eliquid should approximate the 1-1.5 mg of nicotine delivered to the system by an analog cigarette.

This is an area that gets really strange to me thinking about our current eliquid formulations. There's supposed to be about 20 drops in a ml of liquid. So for my 36 mg Riskee Yuice, that means there should be about 1.8 mg of nicotine per drop. Thats alot! But I sure don't feel like I am getting that much. Where does it go? Is my cartridge getting super nicated? Is the 1.5 mg number floating around for nicotine absorbed from a cigarette wrong?

Thank you for that piece of the puzzle. The pieces I had before this was several letters from every anti-smoking/nicotine prohibitionist group basically saying that the FDA should intervene and make HPUS throw NicoWater out on their butts March xx, 2003 Dockets Management Branch Food and Drug Administration Department of Health and Human Services 5630 Fishers Lane and ROPES &GRAY God I wish I had more money and my very own lobbyists... this would be so easy!

There is no doubt that the 6X would be nothing for us. But there is a great argument here for a "new" category. Somewhere that fits between FDA regulated drug and non-regulated taxable tobacco. I, as a supplier, am completely happy to comply to regulations for the safety of my patrons, as well as to charge a fair tax as requested by the government. (And yes, we aren't thrilled about "vice" taxes... but we have to willing to compromise and this product certainly should not be taxed as harshly as tobacco.)

As far as the 1.5mg, I do think this estimated number is wrong. I would like to see further study results on the idea that the additives for brand loyalty are as hard to kick, if not worse, than the nicotine. I can tell you first hand that I transitioned slowly over to the e-cig and once I went full tilt ecig, it has took me about a month to get over that certain something. My nicotine levels are fine and I am a relatively light esmoker compared to my comrades up here. (I can make a 15ml bottle last 30 days 18mg strength no problem and that's not bad for a pack of analog smoker).

It is my estimation that nicotine has been demonized and one of the biggest fights we have is to prove is that nicotine is really no worse than caffeine. (Personally, I think caffeine should be legal for purchase 18+ but that's an entirely different thread) However, anti's focus on the nicotine in tobacco and not the other additives. It is the other additives and the burning that make nicotine dangerous... not the nicotine. It is the delivery system that causes the true problem.

One thing you will learn about me up here is that I am an optimist when it comes to this. I personally think that the days of scare-tactics are over because frankly, the best thing that could have happened to American's are the smoking bans. We all thought Californians were off of their liberal rockers when they started banning smoking. Now that it has spread across the country and people are starting to feel their freedoms taken away (in more than just the cigarette fight), they are finding their voices.

Such an interesting time!

[taz3cat]

I feel that the FDA is more concerned with the Chinese's use of cheaper additives to products they sell. The last 2 years there has been a large number of deaths from these cheaper additives. The is USP PG and other not pure PG etc. Other products have purer forms also. Some things have been bad subitutes and killed people.

[Cymri]

Oh yes- happy to provide it. WOW those links! Nico Water sure did bring out the anti mob, torches n all.

I sure hope your intuition is right about the possibility of a "niche nic" category. Looking over the firestorm that Nico Water caused sure does bring to light just how rabid the anti-nic-zealots truly are.

Still, it really does feel like there is a critical mass gathering around this thing. The timing just feels right for it - a conjunction of technology, information, and a community of folks armed with the certainty that these misty little sticks are the only thing that has ever allowed them to put the cigarettes down.

I'm not sure it is actually possible to turn the tide on the demonization of nicotine any time soon, although you are quite right that it can be argued point by point to have comparable benefits and consequences on health as caffeine does.

Nonetheless, I'm optimistic as well because I know I am right about this. Now if we could just get some local manufacturers producing these small vaporizers and marketing them appropriately so that they don't force the FDA's hand.

[LaceyUnderall]

It's too bad that stopping by here cannot be a pre-requisite for being a supplier. SOOO many problems would be avoided.

If you haven't yet, our good friends at Tobaccoharmreduction.org are on the case! Good allies to have in our boat.

[Sun Vaporer]

It's too bad that stopping by here cannot be a pre-requisite for being a supplier. SOOO many problems would be avoided.

If you haven't yet, our good friends at Tobaccoharmreduction.org are on the case! Good allies to have in our boat.

Lacy--Have you considered selling your starter kits with Zero Nicotine Cartridges and letting consumers purchase the Nicotine cartridges and e-liquid under seperate order (or withinn the same order, but seperating the nicotine out of the Device)? or are you opposed to that idea? Much more difficult to ban a vaporizer sold with no drug? Thoughts?--Sun

[LaceyUnderall]

Lacy--Have you considered selling your starter kits with Zero Nicotine Cartridges and letting consumers purchase the Nicotine cartridges and e-liquid under seperate order (or withinn the same order, but seperating the nicotine out of the Device)? or are you opposed to that idea? Much more difficult to ban a vaporizer sold with no drug? Thoughts?--Sun

Oh Sun... you should know me better than that by now! I am already one step ahead of you and you will all hear about it within the next week or so

That's all I am sayin!