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  1. #21
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    correction:......."their ability," not "they're ability."
    One other note: this 'central control' versus 'individual freedom' argument is being played out in a myriad of contexts in our society. However, we, as a society and as a government, settled this argument, at least with respect to fundamental principles, 235 years ago. It's very simple: the individual is sovereign.

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    In reality we don't know if they are safer. We just know they don't cause the same problems as Analogs. But as far as long term exposure to PG or the effects of the flavoring in our lungs. Yes are safer in the aspect that they cause different things but for all we know they could cause cancer 100 times faster than analogs, just in a different place.

    Until a respectable source does extensive health testing and long term testing I'm still going to agree with this guy

  3. #23
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    Not only big tabacco companies are losing revenue but also local governments that charge $2.00 and $3.00 a pack taxes on cigarettes. You mess with their money and they don't like that. Better their money than your health thats how they see it.

    To handle yourself, use your head; To handle others, use your heart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by I Stelfer I View Post
    In reality we don't know if they are safer. We just know they don't cause the same problems as Analogs. But as far as long term exposure to PG or the effects of the flavoring in our lungs. Yes are safer in the aspect that they cause different things but for all we know they could cause cancer 100 times faster than analogs, just in a different place.

    Until a respectable source does extensive health testing and long term testing I'm still going to agree with this guy
    Stick around this part of the forum and read up on all the legal stuff and medical reviews. You'll see that in reality there's actually nothing to be alarmed about as to what's in an e-cig compared to what's in a tobacco cigarette. Once you get your mind past this fundamental reality, all the other stuff just falls right into place. Who is doing legal battle with whom, it all pretty much adds up.

    Many of the vapers here, we have often noted, are well into their 50s and 60s, even 70s, and to say to a person like that, "Hey, you shouldn't try these e-cigs because the 5 chemicals they contain could be more harmful to you than the 4000 chemicals and 60 carcinogens found in an analog cigarette. So, since you only have 20 or so years to live, please continue to smoke your analogs."

    Be honest, doesn't that sound insulting to you? If you put yourself in the 60 year old guy's shoes?


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    Quote Originally Posted by I Stelfer I View Post
    In reality we don't know if they are safer. We just know they don't cause the same problems as Analogs. But as far as long term exposure to PG or the effects of the flavoring in our lungs. Yes are safer in the aspect that they cause different things but for all we know they could cause cancer 100 times faster than analogs, just in a different place.

    Until a respectable source does extensive health testing and long term testing I'm still going to agree with this guy
    In reality, you probably haven't done much research. I find it stunning to hear anyone say they "could cause cancer 100x faster than analogs" without any supporting evidence. Please check the Health New Zealand reports, to begin with, amongst other things. That's a very uneducated response and it could be taken as "law" by some people who do not know any better. Please be careful of what you say.

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    I'm a bit of a conspiracy theorist so I wont go to deep into what I believe.

    I can name a number of reasons off the top of my head though.

    1. Tobacco companies = multi billion dollar industry's, don't think for a second they don't have pull in most country's. Something that could possibly hurt their industry will have a hard to making a big bang. I believe eventually they'll put some stock into the idea and start making their own products, at that point we shall see them go mainstream.

    2. Population control, sounds harsh but in my honest opinion, I believe our government (united states) and many other countries stand behind population control. With todays medicine and health care people live to long. Take China for example, they have laws keeping them from having more than a certain number of children...

    3. I think I'll stop here, don't want to rub anyone the wrong way with my conspiracy theories, lol.

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    @Jimmy
    I just had to correct your view on the china child laws.
    There are no longer any laws preventing families from having more than one child in mainland china, they just restrict government subsidized services to the families and children.

    IE if you have 1 child, you can get free public schooling, if you have a second, you no longer qualify for govt schooling.

    This essentially allows well off families which can handle themselves in the cities to have multiple children while restricting the economical burden on the country itself.
    Oh and often rural families are huge anyway as they don't care about sending the kids to school, they just want more manpower for the fields.

    FYI, I'm a Chinese American, born in Indiana and spent half my life in Hong Kong.

    China may seem to have crazy/draconian laws at times but with the general intelligence of the population and the way the population is developing there really isnt any other option. This becomes pretty obvious to anyone who happens to stay in the mainland for any period of time on business.

    Not saying I like the Chinese govt, I am living and working in the states for a reason, but its nowhere near as black and white as you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milano View Post
    In reality, you probably haven't done much research. I find it stunning to hear anyone say they "could cause cancer 100x faster than analogs" without any supporting evidence. Please check the Health New Zealand reports, to begin with, amongst other things. That's a very uneducated response and it could be taken as "law" by some people who do not know any better. Please be careful of what you say.

    Though I would agree that some people may take what I said as "oh no it causes cancer that fast? I have to stop!" There really isn't any solid evidence proving or disproving the health hazards of inhaling PG or even flavorings or anti-oxidizers. We know for sure that nicotine causes atherosclerosis which is the hardening of the blood vessels which leads to plaque buildup and nicotine also constricts the blood vessels so those two combined make heart attacks and strokes MUCH more likely in a nicotine user. Source


    So that right there is one bad side effect of vaping.

    Second, no I can not produce a source for the fact that we don't know if vaping causes cancer 100 times faster because there is no research on it. We don't know.

    But everyone who vapes does so at his or her own risk. Vaping does have inherent risks some of which are possibly unknown to us at the present time. So saying vaping is harmless is a complete display of ignorance.

    Let us never forget we once though cigarettes were harmless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipCurtis View Post
    Stick around this part of the forum and read up on all the legal stuff and medical reviews. You'll see that in reality there's actually nothing to be alarmed about as to what's in an e-cig compared to what's in a tobacco cigarette. Once you get your mind past this fundamental reality, all the other stuff just falls right into place. Who is doing legal battle with whom, it all pretty much adds up.

    Many of the vapers here, we have often noted, are well into their 50s and 60s, even 70s, and to say to a person like that, "Hey, you shouldn't try these e-cigs because the 5 chemicals they contain could be more harmful to you than the 4000 chemicals and 60 carcinogens found in an analog cigarette. So, since you only have 20 or so years to live, please continue to smoke your analogs."

    Be honest, doesn't that sound insulting to you? If you put yourself in the 60 year old guy's shoes?

    To be honest, I don't recall ever saying that E-cigs are better or worse for you than cigarettes. The only difference between the two is that we know what cigarettes cause. And as far as the 5 chemicals that are in e-juice, in MOST e-liquid out there, there is more like 20 or so chemicals, 90% of which have not been tested for long term effects.

    The entire purpose of my post was to present the other side of the argument, which is that we do not know the harmful side effects of vaping and honestly we don't know if they are better for you than analogs. All we can assume is that they do not cause the same things. Past that until there is solid scientific research on the long term effects of vaping it is naive to say theres nothing wrong with vaping.

    Btw if you've been smoking for any long period of time and you're looking at the end of your lifespan vaping is going to be just as harmful as smoking because at that point the damage from smoking is done and the problem is going to be caused by the nicotine constricting your vessels and raising your blood pressure (which btw has nothing to do with the smoke itself) That is unless you vape 0mg/mL nicotine juice.

    If there is anyone you care about that you know who smokes and is in their 50's and up, there is no safe smoking alternative, they need to quit using nicotine or it will most likely be the cause of their health problems. Nicotine gum, patches, vaping or pills are all going to have the same effect in the end.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milano View Post
    I find it stunning to hear anyone say they "could cause cancer 100x faster than analogs" without any supporting evidence.
    To be fair, he actually said "for all we know they could cause cancer 100x faster than analogs."
    HUGE difference in his statement when you include the beginning of the sentence.

    Please check the Health New Zealand reports, to begin with, amongst other things.
    While that report is interesting, I'm a little troubled with how often it comes up on the board. Personally I'm taking it with the same grain of salt as everything else. As many in this very thread have said, it's always prudent to 'follow the money,' and that New Zealand study was funded by Ruyan. I'm not saying that means the study isn't valid, but it is something to keep in mind.

    The National Cancer Institute funds a study that results in what many considered to be unfavorable results and people overwhelmingly seem to cry foul. And honestly there may be good reason to.

    Point it, it seems we should be just as skeptical when a study returns favorable results and is funded by the company who held the patent on the e-cig.

    I'm not saying we can't trust anything - just saying that I think I might also be siding with the skeptical hippo for a while... on all fronts. That's all.

    We've got to take the good with the bad... and need to make sure we're not getting too wrapped up in what we want to believe. But the truth is that until some serious long term studies are done we will never know - we can make educated guesses, sure... but we can't really know.
    Last edited by justsomeguy; 02-20-2010 at 06:48 AM.

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