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Thread: FDA to regulate e-cig as tobacco

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlarsen View Post
    Negativity, or reality? Tobacco products are taxed and regulated at the federal and state level. Ecigs, previously not being legally classified as a tobacco product could not be taxed or regulated by states or the federal government. Now they can be, in fact will have to be legally.

    When was the last time you saw a website that sold home grown tobacco to the general public, tax free (except for state sales tax if the buyer resided in the same state as the seller)? Never, it would be illegal. The same goes for ecigs, now that they are a tobacco product, it is only a matter of time until the language of the hundreds or thousands of federal and state tobacco laws are changed to include ecigs and nic-containing ejuice specifically. It will require vendors to register with state governments, tax their products, and obey laws about online and out-of-state sales. This pushes costs up, which will make it difficult for small businesses to compete with multi-billion dollar players.

    The industry is going to change considerably. Some changes will be good, many bad. Many will be forced out of business. The changes will take time, but they will happen. Slowly, incrementally. Prices will go up, not down. Availability will likely increase, but selection will likely decrease. Reliability will increase, the number of additives (except flavoring) will likely increase. Flavors may or may not ever be banned, but they will be threatened with bans. It's just the reality of a regulated industry.
    Ok buddy, here's the great news to rack your tiny little brain. You're obviously not a troll because you've been helping people, so that means that you genuinely believe what you're posting.

    It's more likely that e-cigs will be in the same category as chew, pipe tobacco and cigars, all of which can be easily purchased online. Hell I used to buy cigars all the time at Cigar Humidors, Cigar Accessories, Cigar Gifts, Cigar Pipes & Cigars - TheCigarStore.com , Now while you take a look at how easy it is to buy ACTUAL TOBACCO LEAVES online, let me remind you that the FDA has no rights to tax the products, and can only ban things that are scientifically proven to be unsafe. Since e-cigs may not be entirely safe, but are a lot healthier than tobacco, odds are there will never be any serious scrutiny.

    Next up, the ever-feared taxes. Yes they will be present, probably somewhere between 1% and 10% which isn't all that bad. Cigars have a 33% tax rate with a cap of $1 per cigar, which means the more money you spend the less the taxes are. Now that's the tax rate for a corporate enterprise that's accumulated for more than half a century. The tax on Chewing tobacco is as low as 50cents a POUND. Have you EVER SEEN a pound of tobacco? It's freakin huge.

    Now all of these products actually contained flaming carcinogens. E-cigs and nic liquid do not. By proxy the highest taxes go to the biggest sellers, with Cigarettes being #1, RYO tobacco being #2, Cigars and pipes being #3 and chew being #4. Maybe one day e-cigs will be as popular as regular cigs, but not today, and not during the near future.

    On a (purely speculative) sidenote, most e-cig suppliers are very small businesses, and the cigarette industry is a trillion dollar industry. Maybe they'll be able to tax the importing of e-liquid, but if they start taxing mom and husband in bum-f-nowhere USA that sell e-juice out of their basement. They'll have a middle-class public uproar. Now if you think that they'll mandate the facilities or equipment. I'm sure that's something that the e-juice manufacturers will be willing to deal with.

    So yes, there's a possibility that the lobbyists will push the crap out of taxing e-cigs to put the small companies out of business and make more room for more tailpipe smokers. But one supreme court judge has already shot down the FDA right between the eyes, and there are far more intelligent people out there, including the PRESIDENT who used an e-cig for some time.

    Just think about it for a minute and realize that you're blowing up THE WORST CASE SCENARIO!! In a forum that is trying to HELP people who use these products? Quit .....*ng SCARING PEOPLE!

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimloki View Post
    I'm shocked the FDA lost, personally. I was prepared to shop for e-cig supplies at a head-shop, and possibly have to grow my own tobacco to extract nicotine from. I'm quite happy I was wrong.

    Some people can't handle being wrong, and are just strengthened in their opinions in the face of any evidence to the contrary.
    The FDA didn't lose. It is a partial win for the ecig industry, and a partial win for the FDA. Previously the FDA couldn't even regulate ecigs, and were attempting an all out ban by labeling them as drug devices.

    We can now rest assured they will never be banned, but the FDA can (and will) regulate them.

    The FDA banned all non-tobacco flavors in cigarettes, except menthol, and are now trying to ban menthol as well.

    Flavors in snuff, snus and cigars are still legal, but there is potential for the FDA to ban them as well. It may happen some day, it may never happen. Non-tobacco flavors in ejuice may or may never be sought for a ban, but the potential is now there.

    The best win for the ecig industry might have been if the FDA had lost totally and not been able to ban them as drug devices or regulate them as a tobacco product.

    This opens the doors for taxation and regulation. Ecigs were previously untaxed and unregulated. Say all you want about "fearmongering" but you can't deny that the FDA now has the power to regulate ecigs, and states to tax them. The article specifically states that the FDA will regulate ecigs as a tobacco product. Any tax or regulation on a previously untaxed and unregulated industry will create changes.

    Certainly people can't be so ignorant as to not realize that.

    If you analyze how taxation and regulation forced changes in similar industries, specifically tobacco, but also the alcohol industry, it isn't difficult to see what changes could be in place for ecigs. Namely, higher prices, banned internet sales, and regulation of flavors and licensing of vendors and retailers.

    It's impossible to say which changes will definitely happen, how long they will take to become law, etc. But the industry will change. This is not a complete loss by the FDA that will allow the ecig industry to continue as uninhibited as it has previously been. Anyone that thinks otherwise, is uninformed about the reality of regulated industries and products.

  4. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secti0n31 View Post
    Ok buddy, here's the great news to rack your tiny little brain. ...........etc......
    Just think about it for a minute and realize that you're blowing up THE WORST CASE SCENARIO!! In a forum that is trying to HELP people who use these products? Quit .....*ng SCARING PEOPLE!
    This is a forum for discussion. It seems that those of us who agree that this is a great win for us, but still want to discuss the possilities of what could become are not allowed to speak. If this was a forum of facts instead of discussion, it would be called a book. Please let us discuss and stop berating those of us with ideas opposite to what you believe.
    mwahle1 likes this.

  5. #144
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    The FDA banned all non-tobacco flavors in cigarettes, except menthol, and are now trying to ban menthol as well.

    I forgot about this part. Ok, so by limiting e-juice to "tobacco and menthol" They want to RE-CREATE the taste of EVIL TOBACCO?!? How can you seriously believe that they'll FORCE e-cig vendors to make their products taste like tobacco??? What the hell are you smoking because I want some.
    Last edited by Secti0n31; 04-27-2011 at 08:13 PM.

  6. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vocalek View Post
    Had the FDA won the case, their storm troopers would be breeaking down doors all over the country right now to confiscate the "unapproved drug-delivery devices" from store shelves and suppliers' places of business.
    Jail is big business. Had the FDA won, thousands upon thousands of otherwise upstanding citizens would be labeled a 'criminal' overnight and treated as such. After all right here in the "land of the free" we have the highest incarceration rate in the world... 1 in 4 people has been or is currently in jail. Scary eh?

    Grandfather (rest his soul) use to have these words of wisdom:
    Freedom is an illusion. You are not free. You are only free to do as you ‘ought’ to do, determined solely by the pens that write the laws… those laws may be moral, amoral, justified or simply absurd.

  7. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secti0n31 View Post
    Ok buddy, here's the great news to rack your tiny little brain. You're obviously not a troll because you've been helping people, so that means that you genuinely believe what you're posting.

    It's more likely that e-cigs will be in the same category as chew, pipe tobacco and cigars, all of which can be easily purchased online. Hell I used to buy cigars all the time at Cigar Humidors, Cigar Accessories, Cigar Gifts, Cigar Pipes & Cigars - TheCigarStore.com , Now while you take a look at how easy it is to buy ACTUAL TOBACCO LEAVES online, let me remind you that the FDA has no rights to tax the products, and can only ban things that are scientifically proven to be unsafe. Since e-cigs may not be entirely safe, but are a lot healthier than tobacco, odds are there will never be any serious scrutiny.

    Next up, the ever-feared taxes. Yes they will be present, probably somewhere between 1% and 10% which isn't all that bad. Cigars have a 33% tax rate with a cap of $1 per cigar, which means the more money you spend the less the taxes are. Now that's the tax rate for a corporate enterprise that's accumulated for more than half a century. The tax on Chewing tobacco is as low as 50cents a POUND. Have you EVER SEEN a pound of tobacco? It's freakin huge.

    Now all of these products actually contained flaming carcinogens. E-cigs and nic liquid do not. By proxy the highest taxes go to the biggest sellers, with Cigarettes being #1, RYO tobacco being #2, Cigars and pipes being #3 and chew being #4. Maybe one day e-cigs will be as popular as regular cigs, but not today, and not during the near future.

    On a (purely speculative) sidenote, most e-cig suppliers are very small businesses, and the cigarette industry is a trillion dollar industry. Maybe they'll be able to tax the importing of e-liquid, but if they start taxing mom and husband in bum-f-nowhere USA that sell e-juice out of their basement. They'll have a middle-class public uproar. Now if you think that they'll mandate the facilities or equipment. I'm sure that's something that the e-juice manufacturers will be willing to deal with.

    So yes, there's a possibility that the lobbyists will push the crap out of taxing e-cigs to put the small companies out of business and make more room for more tailpipe smokers. But one supreme court judge has already shot down the FDA right between the eyes, and there are far more intelligent people out there, including the PRESIDENT who used an e-cig for some time.

    Just think about it for a minute and realize that you're blowing up THE WORST CASE SCENARIO!! In a forum that is trying to HELP people who use these products? Quit .....*ng SCARING PEOPLE!
    It is possible that ecigs will suffer the same lower tax rates that cigars and snus do. However that is merely speculation on your part. That is a best case scenario, mine might have been a worst case scenario, but nobody can say what is actually going to happen. Probably somewhere in between your scenario and mine, but only time will tell. Some states will have it worse than others, it isn't going to be equal for everyone everywhere.

    And if you don't think the government can and will go after mom and pop shops, try telling that to someone that has had their property razed by the feds for operating a still. If suppliers don't have the legal credentials to manufacture and sell tobacco products, they are opening up themselves to serious legal liabilities, if they go to the expense and hassle of doing things legally, it raises their costs - this will necessarily force some suppliers out of the market. Even a 10% tax is going to force consolidation on the industry.

    I could go out and buy a carton of cigarettes, and sell packs individually for a profit, as long as I don't get caught. If states decide to tax ecigs, even of mom and pop shops in bum___, selling out of their basements, then it is going to happen, public outrage isn't going to prevent that. It is going to force a lot of small vendors to decide to shutter their businesses, forego the extra expense to be legitimate, or operate illegally - a decision they didn't have to make until this ruling.

    If your assessment of how tobacco products are taxed, then as ecigs gain popularity they will be more heavily taxed. So you really can't say the taxes are going to be as low as 1%, nobody knows what they will be until the states start imposing them. What are taxes on cigarettes? Well above 50% of the cost in most states, are they not?

    Since some states have it out for ecigs, there's no telling what kind of taxes and regulations states will be imposing, only time will tell. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if in a state such as New York, which wants to ban ecigs, will slap a tax of 50-75% on them from day one.

    You're spouting a best case scenario because you don't want to scare people, and others are dancing a victory dance as if this were some kind of huge victory. It is much better than the alternative, an outright ban, but it isn't really a victory over the status quo.

    I may have been stating a worst case scenario, but at least I was being honest about what could happen, and what this "defeat" for the FDA could actually mean to the ecig industry some years down the road.

  8. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secti0n31 View Post
    The FDA banned all non-tobacco flavors in cigarettes, except menthol, and are now trying to ban menthol as well.

    I forgot about this part. Ok, so by limiting e-juice to "tobacco and menthol" They want to RE-CREATE the taste of EVIL TOBACCO?!? How can you seriously believe that they'll FORCE e-cig vendors to make their products taste like tobacco??? What the hell are you smoking because I want some.
    Obviously they can't force vendors to flavor all their juices like tobacco, and they can't stop vendors from selling candy flavors. What they can do, if they choose, and they may not since they haven't done it to snuff, snus and cigars (yet), is to ban vendors from selling juices and prefilled carts/cartos that are flavored with anything but tobacco flavors. Which means vapers would have to order tobacco or unflavored carts/cartos or juice, and then flavor it themselves, which wouldn't effect a lot of vapers, but it would effect some that aren't at all into DIY.

    How can I seriously believe they would do that? They did it with analogs, and are now trying to pass legislation to ban menthol as well. They are also planning on doing it for cigars in the future... so why wouldn't they think to do it to ecigs, now that they have the right to regulate them.

    Have you been living under a rock for the past few years? The FDA is at war with the tobacco industry, a limited war. Their stated goal is to reduce all tobacco products to only those flavors naturally found in tobacco. It is just a matter of time before menthol cigarettes are illegal, they are trying to do that as we speak. After that they plan on going after cigars. I imagine snuff, snus, and eventually pipe tobacco and ecigs will follow.

    Some ecig vendors have already stopped selling juices that are flavored anything accept tobacco or menthol, in order to comply with the same regulations as those required by law for analogs, ahead of the FDA ruling to regulate ecigs as tobacco products... cowtowing to the FDA when they weren't even required to.

    A quote from CASAA.ORG:

    "December 2009: NJOY announces it is discontinuing, in the U.S., the availability of all flavors except its traditional tobacco flavor and menthol. The move aligns the flavors offered by NJOY with those allowed for combustible tobacco cigarettes under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act."

    Have you ever read the CASAA.org home page?

    That's at least one U.S. ejuice vendor that has voluntarily made their products taste like tobacco, in order to appease the FDA, even though the law only required it for analogs.

    As for what I'm smoking? I don't smoke anything. I vape, but I don't smoke.
    Last edited by jlarsen; 04-27-2011 at 08:22 PM.

  9. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMike View Post
    This is a forum for discussion. It seems that those of us who agree that this is a great win for us, but still want to discuss the possilities of what could become are not allowed to speak. If this was a forum of facts instead of discussion, it would be called a book. Please let us discuss and stop berating those of us with ideas opposite to what you believe.
    Thank you.

  10. #149
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    No way is my speculation a best case scenario. The best case scenario is that nothing changes, and things actually get cheaper. The government determines that things are totally safe, and are promoted to all smokers as safe alternatives. The business takes off, big tobacco goes bankrupt, and the world it at peace.

    Am I Speculating? Maybe. Is this an informed rant based on educated information on the workings of the tobacco industry and the tax methodology the government has been using for their current hikes on tobacco. This may be a forum for discussion, but I guess it bothers me to no end that someone could possibly be so negative about such good news.

    I'm gonna go back to helping newbs with their flooded attys, and teaching people how to mod clearo's into useable devices. And trying to decide whether to buy a GLV2 or a VV joker, and which I like better, Camtel or Earp, and drip some CoV butterscotch and watch movies while you rack your brain with the argument that the taxes will be anywhere close to that of even cigars let alone analogs. Think about what I've said, and keep in mind that I'm not just "throwing stuff out there," I've seen the way the tide is rolling, and while you get sucked in the rips, I'm surfin the waves. Peace out.

  11. #150
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    I think e-cigs cause irrational paranoia. This thread is my evidence.
    Secti0n31 likes this.

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