Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT ISSUES STAY

[Vocalek]

Hello everyone,

I have been following this thread for several weeks now. Just picked up my VP2 and have become a vaping apostle. The witnessing begins at 9:00AM, Noon, and 2:00PM every week day!

The discussion appears to hinge on the e-cigarette being labeled as a drug delivery system or a tobacco product. Well there is a catch. I work for a company which administers IRS section 125 cafeteria plans. If the FDA successfully labels the e-cigarette as a drug delivery system wouldn't the e-cig become a medically prescribed device. The tax laws regarding medical devices dictates the e-cigarette would not be taxable and if the e-liquid is considered a drug and not a tobacco product it would follow that a prescription would be necessary and the liquid would be tax free.

You can always find a doctor to prescribe anything, so it just becomes a matter of drug seeking until you find a doctor who is willing to prescribe the devices and the nicotine juice as an alternative to consuming tar, carcinogens, and stinking up his or her office.

I have a hard time seeing the government passing up the ability to tax the e-cigarette and the nicotine liquid. Making e-cigarettes and the nicotine juice outright illegal would require nicotine to be scheduled as a controlled substance and therefore make tobacco illegal.

This is all unsupported speculation but I think the tax angle is really going to limit what the FDA can do with any of this. After all is said and done, the IRS is a much bigger bully on the playground than the FDA.

Very interesting observation. Welcome to our little club. Of course if it were to be officially considered a medical device, the smoking bans would definitely not apply to its use in public. Laws or rules prohibiting the use would be in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

But the main reason most of us fear that outcome is that it takes years to gain FDA approval. In the meantime, it appears that FDA is adamant about taking them off the market. So if other government bodies have a vested interest in keeping them available because they want to tax them, that works in favor of our health and staying alive.

[dubnluvn]

I think dgnrit hit the nail on the head. Oh and would that mean that we could all get those little blue placards so we can get the good parking spots???

[jerrydon10]

That presumption is what an implicit representation is, and an implicit representation has the same legal effect as an explicit one. So, no logic problem here.

Furthermore, if reality is yet to be determined (i.e., by the Judges' ruling), then you must obviously be unable to assess the accuracy of my perception.

Horsehocky. Your presumption of a glass half empty is not even a presumption, it's an opinion and one that holds no weight when one weighs it with empirical facts surrounding this case.

And yes, reality is yet to be determined. I am able to ascertain the accuracy of your perception simply by coming to the realization that you have no idea what fact really is regarding this case, yet you think you do.......Why not just predict the Judge's ruling precisely and we will see if you are right.

[Sun Vaporer]

Again, thx to Sun ,and the rest that have diligently placed the necessary Legal information in this thread.

I have been tracking this thread for a while now, but I haven't taken the time to read in completion, as there are several pages of tripe (some of which has since been removed for obvious reason ) , so forgive me if I should already know this, my question is in regards to Judge Leon.

I could look through countless pages / sites , study the general consensus of the Judges past findings in just as many cases, instead, I'm asking if we have a general idea of his disposition in the court room. In other words , what is he like, what , as a rule direction does he tend to lean in his judgements. This might be a much too general question, but I think it's relevant to this case., or I should say food for thought. For no other reason then to presume, assume, and entirely collect thoughts that could and surely be entirely mislead by personal opinion of his general track record.

Richard Leon, a judge for the U.S. District Court for Washington DC, ruled that five Algerian detainees at Guantanamo Bay be released after serving seven years at the prison. The ruling comes after the U.S. Supreme Court determined that the detainees have the legal right to contest their imprisonment.The New York Times: Judge Orders Five Detainees Freed From Guantánamo (November 20, 2008)1

The lawyers of the released detainees argued that their clients should not be considered "enemy combatants" because they were not captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan. Government attorneys countered that defense by claiming that the men were planning to travel to Afghanistan to join al-Qaeda.The Boston Globe: Lawyers debate 'enemy combatant' (October 24, 2008)2
<LI id=sort-section_550543 sizcache="3" sizset="0" pinned="0" layout_order="1">Fast Facts

1. Born: 1949
2. Alma mater: College of the Holy Cross, 1971U.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3
3. Received a J.D. from Suffolk Law SchoolU.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3
4. Received an LL.M. from Harvard Law School in 1981
5. Appointed to the United States District Court in February 2002
6. 1987: Deputy Chief Minority Counsel for the [[U.S. House Select “Iran-Contra” Committee]]U.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3
7. 1994: Special Counsel to the U.S. House Banking Committee for its "Whitewater" investigationU.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3
8. 1997: Special Counsel to the bipartisan U.S. House Ethics Reform Task ForceU.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3
9. Currently an adjunct law professor at the Georgetown University Law Center and the George Washington University Law SchoolU.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3

[Sun Vaporer]

Judge Leon-- "Bailiff, Order in the Court while I refill my cartridge!!!"





(Actual drawing of Judge Leon)

[LameBMX]

Judge Leon-- "Bailiff, Order in the Court while I refill my cartridge!!!"

Wouldn't that be nice!

[PhiHalcyon]

Horsehocky. Your presumption of a glass half empty is not even a presumption, it's an opinion and one that holds no weight when one weighs it with empirical facts surrounding this case.

And yes, reality is yet to be determined. I am able to ascertain the accuracy of your perception simply by coming to the realization that you have no idea what fact really is regarding this case, yet you think you do.......Why not just predict the Judge's ruling precisely and we will see if you are right.

I have not presumed the glass to be half empty. In my desire to see the ecig survive as a commercially available product, I have presumed the glass to be full, and have, on more than one occasion, pointed out precisely how the FDA could be forced to regulate the ecig as a tobacco product. I have also, however, recently realized that the FDA has no intention of playing fair. The ecig will not be permitted to be sold as a tobacco product, period. That is the FDA position, and it has the power to effectuate it. To whatever degree the actions of the FDA can be challenged in the courts, the time and investment required to do so do not offer a sufficiently stable reward to make it worthwhile. Consequently, if the FDA insists that the ecig not be marketed as anything other than a fully approved drug product, then that is precisely what shall happen. Please plan accordingly, for the writing is on the wall.

[danielwd]

JerryDon10: Reality is how the judge rules. period.

Only if I'm standing before him/her in handcuffs.

[sherid]

Richard Leon, a judge for the [[*]Currently an adjunct law professor at the Georgetown University Law Center and the George Washington University Law SchoolU.S. District Court, Washington, DC: Judge Richard J. Leon3[/LIST]

It is interesting that Judge Leon and Banzhaf are both law professors at George Washington University. I wonder if they have a history.

[Sun Vaporer]

It is interesting that Judge Leon and Banzhaf are both law professors at George Washington University. I wonder if they have a history.

Sherid--It took only 59 minutes from the time I posted for someone to pick up on that!! I think that is a given. He approved Banzhaf's Leave of Court to file ASH's Brief in 24 hours.


Sun