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Smoking Everywhere V. FDA Daily Docket Sheet Update--APPEAL's COURT ISSUES STAY in Electronic Cigarette News; Originally Posted by aubergine And if he's not revealing everything about an upcoming action, I do suspect that there's a ...
  1. #5871
    Accessories Supplier ECF Veteran kristin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aubergine View Post
    And if he's not revealing everything about an upcoming action, I do suspect that there's a reason for it.
    That was the only thing I was saying he was being cryptic about, for pete's sake.

    Sun is an official advisor to CASAA and being on the CASAA board of directors myself, I would think that an upcoming event with suppliers, that may completely change the course of action and would have a huge impact on what CASAA advocates and supports, would be something that he would want to share with us, rather than having us undermine whatever they want to do. At the very least, confidentially and off the forum.

    If you notice, I've been on these forums for over 7 months and been active in this thread and I am very active in fighting to keep vaping legal.

    I've thanked Sun several times for keeping this thread updated.

    No need to stick up for Sun, he can take care of himself.

    Please get all of the facts before chastizing someone.

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    Accessories Supplier ECF Veteran kristin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sun Vaporer View Post
    Kristin----

    When I cried out in this this thread for ECA or some other group to file a Amicus Brief with Judge Leon to no avail, I repeatedly asked for a group day after day, until Alliance came up. Alliance did not disclose itself on this Forum till the Brief was filed.

    I knew we had a group under way as I was bombarded with PM's with questions from one Alliance member about if they were on the right track. Good for Alliance and glad I could answer any questions the Alliance member had.

    So for the same reasons, good ones I might add, that Alliance did not disclose till they filed, such is the case here.

    Also I do not think my posts are somehow "cryptic" in any way. If anything they clearly spell out the theory of the case.


    Sun
    Your posts are "cryptic" because you aren't naming names and not saying exactly what they are doing. That would be what cryptic means.

    It's stupid of these suppliers to not at least give CASAA a heads up as to their intended action. For all intents and purposes, CASAA is working AGAINST them right now, because we don't know they exist and we don't know their game plan. They could be using CASAA's resources to pave the way for them instead of fighting for what you (and obviously they) feel is a lost cause!

    The Amicus Brief is a completely different situation and there was no CASAA, Vapers International or Vapers Coalition at that time. As a matter of fact, key players of that Amicus Brief are members of the Vapers Coalition.

    I implore you to have the leaders of this supplier group contact us and let us know what is going on and how we can help.

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    Accessories Supplier ECF Veteran kristin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anim8r View Post
    I thought "reduced harm" was referring to the activity of smoking/vaping.

    If you substitute meat in your diet with tofu, the tofu is not considered a "meat product".


    It is still my opinion that if e-cigs become classified as "tobacco products" it will effectively ban e-cigs for the vast majority of the public since it will be illegal to mail these tobacco products.

    Shipments of any tobacco-related products will still be seized at the docks. However, this time it will be the ATF doing it, and there will be NO way to fight back. Instead, you could be facing charges and needing to look for a good defense lawyer.

    Once e-cigs become tobacco products it will take years of fighting to have it considered for reduced harm status. And during that time, tobacco bans, taxes, and city/state/federal restrictions will make them too expensive, reduce the allowed types of flavors, and turn them into an unsavory alternative to smoking when compared to ineffective NRTs.

    Also, the only people that have the resources to push the continued existence of this product (and only if they choose to) would now be the vaper's number one nemisis. Big Tobacco.

    Classifying them as a tobacco product will effectively hand e-cigs right into the open arms of BT.

    For a little while we would also still have the kiosk centers. But we all know how aweful those products are.


    It is my opinion that getting it classified as a tobacco product will kill all of the aspects that make e-cigs so attractive as an alternative smoking device to new users (and kill it far faster than any of the anti's could have ever dreamed possible).

    Whereas pushing to have it classified as a drug or reduced-harm product will (at the worst) only restrict the nicotine aspects. Hardware and 0-nic liquids would be under no such restrictions since battery holders and the non-nicotine ingredients contained in liquid can be legally sold in America. Only the nicotine would be subject to the possibility of restrictive measures.
    Reduced harm would apply to tofu in your scenario if tofu was also considered harmful.

    "Reduced harm" means that the product is similar to the dangerous product, may carry it's own risks, yet the risks are considerably less than the product it's intended to replace.

    Your opinion is wrong about mailing ecigs. Sorry. Read the PACT Act. It only applies to specific tobacco products and ecigs are NOT on the list. It would take an act of congress to get them added.

    Have you read ANYTHING about this topic?

    The FDA WANTS it to be classified as a drug, effectively BANNING it immediately. Then it'll take years and millions of dollars to get it approved.

    As a tobacco product, it will at least stay available for us to use, it'll take a couple of years for the FDA to get standards established and give us time to prove it's reduced harm value.

    Taxes are NOTHING. I've made this point several times:

    A cigarette is 35 cents. A nicotine inhaler cartridge is $1.05.

    Even with the taxes, ecigs will be CHEAPER AS TOBACCO PRODUCTS than if they get in the hands of the drug companies!!

    EDITED to add: Sorry, Thad, I missed your post before posting this. You already covered everything!
    Last edited by kristin; 04-09-2010 at 07:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kristin View Post
    Reduced harm would apply to tofu in your scenario if tofu was also considered harmful.

    "Reduced harm" means that the product is similar to the dangerous product, may carry it's own risks, yet the risks are considerably less than the product it's intended to replace.

    Your opinion is wrong about mailing ecigs. Sorry. Read the PACT Act. It only applies to specific tobacco products and ecigs are NOT on the list. It would take an act of congress to get them added.

    Have you read ANYTHING about this topic?

    The FDA WANTS it to be classified as a drug, effectively BANNING it immediately. Then it'll take years and millions of dollars to get it approved.

    As a tobacco product, it will at least stay available for us to use, it'll take a couple of years for the FDA to get standards established and give us time to prove it's reduced harm value.

    Taxes are NOTHING. I've made this point several times:

    A cigarette is 35 cents. A nicotine inhaler cartridge is $1.05.

    Even with the taxes, ecigs will be CHEAPER AS TOBACCO PRODUCTS than if they get in the hands of the drug companies!!
    I agree and I'm behind you 100% Kristin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryRM View Post
    I have to defend Sun also. IMO he has done a great job in keeping us informed as to what is happening in the legal battle. If there is something going on that he doesn't want to tell us about, I am sure there is a good reason.

    You don't send a copy of your battle plans to the enemy.
    Since when is CASAA the enemy??

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    Ultra Member ECF Veteran Thulium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothenbj View Post
    I have a question about that statement. How can they force the e-cigarette to zero nic and still declare that it is an NRT device. They banned drug paraphernalia such as pipes and bongs years ago and you see today how well that worked out. You sell the hardware as a personal vaporizer with flavored PG and you have a novelty item in my humble opinion. Its not a food and not a drug so how does the FDA get involved? Just curious.
    The FDA's argument is that e-cigs are "obviously" a smoking cessation device--which they would continue to be even if the nicotine is removed. As a device intended "to affect the structure or function of the body" the FDA insists it has medical value and must be regulated as such.

    Read here for an example of what the FDA does with "devices": FDAReview.org, a project of The Independent Institute

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    Accessories Supplier ECF Veteran kristin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rothenbj View Post
    I have a question about that statement. How can they force the e-cigarette to zero nic and still declare that it is an NRT device. They banned drug paraphernalia such as pipes and bongs years ago and you see today how well that worked out. You sell the hardware as a personal vaporizer with flavored PG and you have a novelty item in my humble opinion. Its not a food and not a drug so how does the FDA get involved? Just curious.
    Propylene glycol is also a substance under the FDA's regulation. There is no proof that constant, longer term inhalation of PG is 100% safe.

    Chancse are they would not enforce 0 nic, but as a tobacco product, they are literally not allowed to force 0 nic.

    They have not forced tobacco to reduce nicotine levels and therefore, would have a difficult time arguing for ecig nicotine levels that are less than tobacco, as it's commonly known that nicotine is one of the safest ingredients in tobacco!
    Last edited by kristin; 04-09-2010 at 07:29 PM.

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    Kristin,

    What sounds a little "cryptic" IMO is statments about what and when the FDA will do certain things.

    You state as a fact that:

    Quote Originally Posted by kristin View Post
    ........"Reduced harm" means that the product is similar to the dangerous product, may carry it's own risks, yet the risks are considerably less than the product it's intended to replace.....

    As a tobacco product, it will at least stay available for us to use, it'll take a couple of years for the FDA to get standards established and give us time to prove it's reduced harm value.
    Have you talked to any officals from the FDA? Have you personally sat down and met with people that promulgate FDA rules and regulations? I have and that is not what I am hearing.

    Another thing you might want to revisit, and I will repeat it again:

    What makes you think that if the E-cig is ruled a "tobacco" product, that the FDA can still not mandate an Approval process that is tantamount to a de-facto ban. We are not talking about a ban, which they could not do, but rather having an Approval process for saftey and licensure which would take the e-cig off the market until complied with.

    And then again we have those regulations. Not the regulations about flavoring, but nicotine content and "regulated consumer dosing". IMO, the FDA e-cig will not look like what we all use now. I will reiterate again, that most people need a high dose of nicotine to start with. Absent that, the e-cig will be reduced to nothing more then a "legal regulated failure".


    So be careful for what you wish for I guess is the best way to put it.


    Sun

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thulium View Post
    The FDA's argument is that e-cigs are "obviously" a smoking cessation device--which they would continue to be even if the nicotine is removed. As a device intended "to affect the structure or function of the body" the FDA insists it has medical value and must be regulated as such.

    Read here for an example of what the FDA does with "devices": FDAReview.org, a project of The Independent Institute

    Thulium--good point, but remember that the FDA can "insist" all they want until a Court tells them otherwise.

    The E-cigs intended use is to deliver nicotine for recreational purposes with no theraputic endpoint or claim. Hard sell to a Court that this constitutes and meets the legal definition of being a "drug" the FDA can regulate. Although you never know what a Court is going to do, at least you give it a go if you think you have a good faith argument that the FDA is acting outside of its scope and overreaching.

    Sun
    Last edited by Sun Vaporer; 04-09-2010 at 07:50 PM.

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    Ultra Member ECF Veteran Thulium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sun Vaporer View Post
    What makes you think that if the E-cig is ruled a "tobacco" product, that the FDA can still not mandate an Approval process that is tantamount to a de-facto ban. We are not talking about a ban, which they could not do, but rather having an Approval process for saftey and licensure which would take the e-cig off the market until complied with.
    The different standards for regulation of drugs/devices that the FDA has in place allow them to seize imports of unregulated drugs and they can be made illegal to sell without the FDA approval that will undoubtedly take years to accomplish. Tobacco products, on the other hand, have been specifically exempted from the FDA's import and sales restrictions.

    Yes, the FDA can require tobacco companies to comply with various regulations and they could theoretically revoke the license from companies unwilling to comply (but no one would expect that to happen to Philip Morris, would we?)...but tobacco products will remain on the market in the intervening time between now and whenever the FDA actually makes tobacco regulations. On the other hand, the FDA can remove unapproved drugs from the market until they are approved.

    An especially absurd example of device delay occurred to the Sensor Pad. The Sensor Pad is so simple it hardly justifies the term device: it is two sheets of sealed plastic that sandwich a silicon lubricant. With the Sensor Pad, a woman can more easily detect unusual breast lumps in a self-examination. Although the product is simple, it is quite useful and can save lives through early detection of breast cancer. The Sensor Pad was invented in 1986 by Earl Wright of Inventive Products and was submitted to the FDA for approval. The FDA, however, could find no other substantially equivalent product on the market and thus automatically classified the Sensor Pad as a high-risk, Class III device. Before being allowed to sell the Sensor Pad, Inventive Products had to submit a premarket approval application to the FDA.

    Inventive Products submitted hundreds of pages documenting the safety and effectiveness of the Sensor Pad (both of which were evident to anyone who used the product for sixty seconds), yet years went by, and still the FDA wanted more documents. As it turned out, the FDA decided that in order for the device to be approved, Inventive Products needed to show not simply that the Sensor Pad helped women to detect breast lumps but that it reduced the mortality of breast cancer. Proof of this kind would require extensive clinical trials involving thousands of women tracked over many years—all this in order to get permission to sell a device substantially less complicated and less dangerous than a toaster oven.

    Canada, western Europe, Japan, and other countries quickly approved the Sensor Pad. In Canada, a country that is hardly known as the Wild West of medical devices, the Sensor Pad was approved in thirty days with approximately half a dozen pages of documentation. Frustrated at the delay, Inventive Products defied the FDA and in 1988 began selling the Sensor Pad to hospitals.

    Hospitals bought several hundred thousand Sensor Pads and gave them to women, some of whom would later testify in Congress that the product had saved their lives. Doctors too began to use the device and reported positive results. In 1989, however, the FDA raided Inventive Products and a number of hospitals (!) and “on behalf of American women” confiscated the Sensor Pads. Several lawsuits and several years later the product was still not available in the United States.

    In April 1994, the situation began to change when the Wall Street Journal ran a story on the Sensor Pad that was later discussed in Congress by Representative John Duncan of Tennessee (the Congressional Record contains Duncan’s remarks and the Wall Street Journal story). Later that same year, ABC’s 20/20 did an investigative report on the FDA highlighting the Sensor Pad fiasco as well as other examples of device delay (see, for example, the Baby Ventilator Incident). The next year, Congress held hearings at which a number of women and doctors testified in favor of the Sensor Pad. Finally, after nearly ten years of delay and several million dollars in legal and other costs, the Sensor Pad was approved in December 1995. But the mandarins at the FDA had the last word: they decreed that the Sensor Pad was to be used only with a doctor’s prescription!

    The lesson of the Sensor Pad is not simply one of FDA intransigence. The larger lesson reveals itself when we consider that if Inventive Products had not defied the FDA, there would have been no women ready and able to testify in Congress that the Sensor Pad saved their lives. The media paid attention because it could place a human face on the Sensor Pad story. If Inventive Products had not defied the FDA, knowledge of the Sensor Pad would not have leaked out from behind the FDA’s wall of silence. (It’s noteworthy that, since the Safe Medical Devices Act of 1990, the FDA can fine companies up to $1 million for an alleged violation of the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act of 1938 related to medical devices. Inventive Products probably could not afford to defy the FDA today.) Tragically, the usual situation is for information to remain locked behind FDA doors. We rarely get to try products that the FDA fails to approve, and we never get to try products that are never brought into existence because FDA rules and regulations have made research and development uneconomic. As a result, the public remains ignorant of the true costs of FDA power. (The section FDA Incentives discusses this problem at greater length.) It is only in rare cases, when the FDA withdraws approval from a product (recall the lotronex example) or bans an already existing product, that the true costs become clearer.
    There was not even any active ingredient in that thing! It was 2 pieces of plastic and some lubricant, yet the FDA was seizing the product from doctors 3 years after they were submitted for FDA approval.

    I could see it being possible for e-cigs to survive without being legally defined as a tobacco product. In other countries like the UK, it seems possible that the e-cig might be okay in the hands of the medical regulators because they have adopted a harm reduction stance. In the United States, however, it is my considered opinion that the FDA is absolutely not suited to regulate the e-cig as a drug/device combo without first undergoing comprehensive reform, and the 450,000+ people who will die each year it takes for the FDA to figure out how to make e-cigs as ineffective as an NRT should not be made to wait.

    I wish the companies you hint are submitting e-cigs to the FDA for approval all the best of luck and I honestly hope they are allowed to start selling their products soon. That doesn't make Judge Leon's ruling that e-cigs are NOT a drug device any less critical to the future of e-cigs. Therefore, I am not convinced that SE would have been better off trying to go through the FDA first, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
    Last edited by Thulium; 04-09-2010 at 08:22 PM.

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